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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2004 : 19:31:25 [Permalink]
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Maybe I'm just tired, but this thread has stopped making sense.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 19:44:32 [Permalink]
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You're right, Renae. It's devolved to where it's little but Dude and I missing each others' points, at best.
Apologies to the OP. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 20:24:35 [Permalink]
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The problem, in a nutshell (I hope), is that it's not sound thinking to draw the conclusion that consciousness is extinguished upon death based on the evidence we currently have. (Don't get all bent out of shape Dave, I'm not saying that this is a position you have taken, but others have)
To address Ricky's dragon analogy, the reason it's a bad analogy is this. To make it comparable to human consciousness you would have to have actually HAD that dragon in your garage in an observable form at one time (like consciousness is before death). Under those circumstances your analogy would be appropriate when you then state that the dragon is there now, but undetectable (but was there and detectable before). If it had actually been there, wouldn't you be curious as to what actually happened to it? Would you be satisfied with "it just disappeared" as an answer?
And the reason it's insulting to be termed an agnostic (purely my subjective opinion) is that it seems like a deliberate misrepresentation of what I have stated. I'm not saying that Im undecided, I'm saying that there isn't enough information to draw an informed conclusion.
quote:
It's devolved to where it's little but Dude and I missing each others' points
Yeah, and I apologize for the potentially insulting tone of a previous post or two.... but it's not an easy topic to form and state clear positions on. Compounded by my (once again purely subjective opinion) perception of intentional insults. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 05:48:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
And the reason it's insulting to be termed an agnostic (purely my subjective opinion) is that it seems like a deliberate misrepresentation of what I have stated. I'm not saying that Im undecided, I'm saying that there isn't enough information to draw an informed conclusion.
But that's what an agnostic is. Being an agnostic myself, where the divine is concerned, I can tell you that the thing which makes me an agnostic is that I don't believe we have enough information to draw an informed conclusion. If you're thinking agnostics are just indecisive people, you're mistaken. 
So far, every argument you've made for your stance on consciousness after death could easily be applied to how agnostics view the existence or non-existence of God. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 09:03:11 [Permalink]
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I had a thought the other night while arguing with my girlfriend the differences for being either atheist or agnostic. I was arguing that there is no difference, unless you're the sort of atheist who says something stupid like "there is no god and I can prove it." Every atheist I know says there is no evidence for a god and therefor there is no reason to assume the existence of god. Conversely, if an atheist was provided undeniable evidence of the existence of God, they would rethink their position on the matter. An agnostic says we have no knowledge of god. We are without knowledge. Knowledge being evidence for gods existence. Really, these are the same positions. So we choose the word that we think best describes our lack of faith. The word we feel is the most precise.
I feel that the word atheist describes what we are.
I think the word agnostic describes why we are that way. So, I identify myself as agnostic, even though I am aware of the fact that I am an atheist as well... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 09:10:54 [Permalink]
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the word "gnostic" has been used for the last 2000 years as not just knowledge, but knowledge of esoteric and spiritual matters.
Huxley specifically called himself "agnostic" in response.
So, the word was originally coined to mean a person who was without knowledge of the spiritual.
More recently we have used the word to imply a doubtfull or noncommital stance of a subject.
My position on human consciousness might fit into that second category... by a stretch. But to then, as someone did, claim that I must be a religious agnostic?
quote:
posted by SciFi Chick So far, every argument you've made for your stance on consciousness after death could easily be applied to how agnostics view the existence or non-existence of God.
Incorrect. As I have been trying to explain, you would fist have to have had god in some observable form, and then have the situation change to what we have now (no observable god) before you can conflate my position on post mortem consciousness with god. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 09:11:33 [Permalink]
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| Just out of curiosity - what would you consider good evidence for God? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 09:25:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I had a thought the other night while arguing with my girlfriend the differences for being either atheist or agnostic. I was arguing that there is no difference, unless your the sort of atheist why says something stupid like "there is no god and I can prove it." Every atheist I know says there is no evidence for a god and therefor there is no reason to assume the existence of god. Conversely, if an atheist was provided undeniable evidence of the existence of God, they would rethink their position on the matter. An agnostic says we have no knowledge of god. We are without knowledge. Knowledge being evidence for gods existence. Really, these are the same positions. So we choose the word that we think best describes our lack of faith. The word we feel is the most precise.
I feel that the word atheist describes what we are.
I think the word agnostic describes why we are that way. So, I identify myself as agnostic, even though I am aware of the fact that I am an atheist as well...
I believe that agnosticism has two seperate sub-classifications.
Atheistic agnosticism which does not assume the existance of (a) supreme being(s)
and
Theistic Agnosticism which assumes the existance of (a) supreme being(s)
Unless an athiest is actively claiming there is no God and has proof, they can be termed atheistic agnostics. This takes a position that there is not sufficient evidence to prove the existance or non-existance of a higher intelligent power, but until there is such evidence non-existance is assumed.
It doesn't make atheistic agnostics any less atheist. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 09:43:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
posted by SciFi Chick So far, every argument you've made for your stance on consciousness after death could easily be applied to how agnostics view the existence or non-existence of God.
Incorrect. As I have been trying to explain, you would fist have to have had god in some observable form, and then have the situation change to what we have now (no observable god) before you can conflate my position on post mortem consciousness with god.
I disagree. If there had been evidence of God, and then there was no more evidence of God, but no specific evidence that God did or did not exist, I would still be an agnostic.
Just because your premise is different does not mean the conclusions must be different.
I call myself an agnostic because I do not believe there is evidence to support or deny the existence of God. Not only that, I'm not sure there CAN be evidence that will support either side. Your statement that "there isn't enough information to draw an informed conclusion." is a very COMMON definition of agnostic.
Now, whether or not it's the definition you prefer for agnostic, the fact that many people see that as a definition for agnostic means you should not be insulted to be termed an agnostic in that sense. Wouldn't you agree on that point at least? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
| Edited by - SciFi Chick on 07/27/2004 09:50:47 |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 09:53:16 [Permalink]
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Here is the definition from Merriam Webster:
"Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
- ag·nos·ti·cism /-t&-"si-z&m/ noun"
Dude - do you think there ever will be enough information to make an informed decision? That would determine whether or not you can be considered agnostic in this sense, must more so than the fact that consciousness is observable in living humans. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 10:10:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Atheistic agnosticism which does not assume the existance of (a) supreme being(s)
Man, this is starting to get confusing. I had it all figured out before now... haha. Alright, so in your definition, atheistic agnosticism is someone who basically says, "I have no evidence of any god, and following Occum's Razor that means that no god(s) exist, but I will change my stance if any real evidence is offered otherwise." Right?
Correct. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 10:51:30 [Permalink]
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Wow, all this because I thought I came up with a real good off the cuff statement to my Dad while discussing religion. What a great site! I love a good debate. IMHO - Dude is simply wrong. I would argue (and have) that we do know how consciousness is created. It is the by-product of a properly functioning brain. Brain failure = no consciousness, therefore death = no consciousness. I believe the idea of consciousness after death is a comforting fantasy....as is the belief in a God (sorry Dude, I couldn't resist the comparison). Notice how vain I am by signing off with my own quote! That's ok, I've always been a little vain and materialistic, but at least I have the cojhones to face reality. Even though I may not like some of the answers, I can deal with them in a rational way. Then again cryonic suspension might not be a bad idea.
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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