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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2004 : 03:09:15 [Permalink]
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Dave
Absolutely. QED is heavy. |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 06:21:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
The FAQ explains it, but here's how that FAQ link was created:
FAQ
Hmmm... that's exactly what I did but it did not show as such on the preview! I'm sure I goofed up somehow! Thanks |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 10:57:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
N C More: sigh* I can't resist.
To be sung to the tune of Let It Be
(my apology to the Beatles)
When I find myself in times of BABBling
Coberst comes to me, speaking words of critical thinking
Let it bore
And in my hour of repetition
Coberst is posting right in front of me
Let it bore, Let it bore
Let it bore, Let it bore
Whispering words of redundancy
Let it bore
And when all of us "ignorant people"
Living in the world agree with him
There will be an answer (?)
Let it bore
_________________
You have a talent--sort of a Weird Al Yankovic of skeptical forums. 
It is ironic that Coberst has brought people together because of his failure to apprehend what other posters have said to him...no less than on two sites that encourage critical thinking.
Coberst, wherever you are out there in the WWW, I'd like to know what you think of this irony. |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 12:23:26 [Permalink]
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I can tell you the purpose of my parody. I was trying to use humor to make coberst aware of his repetition and failure to engage in discussion. I was trying to point out that his "soliloquy" to critical thought was redundant and that now was the time to actually begin discussion. Maybe it had some positive affect?
BTW, believe it or not my family actually likes my silly songs! Then again, maybe they're just humoring me? |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 12:48:04 [Permalink]
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| To the unsophisticated palate all tea tastes the same. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 13:10:34 [Permalink]
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Coberst,
Are you saying that through self learning we should investigate critical thinking?
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 13:24:22 [Permalink]
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| I really was hoping for that "positive affect". A helpful piece of advice, a patronizing attitude towards others is not a useful prelude to discussion. A very large number of people have been telling you the exact same things. Is it your contention that all of these people are unsophisticated and/or ignorant? Think carefully and critically about this. If you conclude that every person who has pointed out your repetitive statements is intellectually deficient then there's not much point in continuing to post to such an audience...is there? |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 16:39:18 [Permalink]
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Furshur
I consider self-learning is what Socrates meant when he advised that an unexamined life is not worth living. Self-learning is an individual searching for understanding of the self and understanding of the world around him/her. I consider it to be a necessary part of the examined life. I do not think that one can be taught the examined life. You must aggressively seek what you and only you know what you need to become the complete person. You grow in understanding as you pursue that which your curiosity determines you need.
You will, while being a self-learner, need to construct a house that is constructed well. You will need the plumb-bobs and levels that CT provides if you wish to do the job as well as it might be done. As a self-learner you are on your own. You do not have a teacher at your side to make corrections for you. CT is a necessary condition for a well ordered and cogent attempt at the examined life. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 16:49:15 [Permalink]
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N C Moore
I have been followed about by a roaming bunch of hecklers who spend all their energy making cute remarks. Whenever you and your friends want to engage in a discussion of the isuue I will do so. I will not engage in foolish banter going nowhere. Also it is my contention that if you do not attempt to understand a subject you are going to continue to be unsophisticated in that subject. The greatest handicap in approaching a new subject matter is to assume that you already know what it is about before you ever make an effort to understand what is being said. It seems to be a human characteristic to do a "turtle" at the approach of anything new. Being negative saves you the trouble of trying to understand what another is saying. |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 17:08:48 [Permalink]
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Well, coberst, I give up! Yep, you win, I'm just one of those "ignorant turtles". I leave it to others to deal with this one, Peace.
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"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 19:42:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
I leave it to others to deal with this one, Peace.
Haha, alright, I'll bite.
quote:
I have been followed about by a roaming bunch of hecklers who spend all their energy making cute remarks. Whenever you and your friends want to engage in a discussion of the isuue I will do so.
We have tried to talk to you, but everyone who disagrees with you, you call closed minded and unknowlegeable on the subject. I remember reading on a forum, someone asked you a question and you basically said, "You didn't read it well enough, its all in the first post." instead of answering their question. Thats what a forum is for, not only just to spew out random information put to talk about it as well. You have not replied to any of our comments or questions in any of your posts.
quote:
Also it is my contention that if you do not attempt to understand a subject you are going to continue to be unsophisticated in that subject.
This is based on an assumption that he does not know the subject, and I have a feeling (a hunch really) that he knows the subject better than you do.
quote:
Being negative saves you the trouble of trying to understand what another is saying.
The problem is Coberst, we know what your saying because you've been saying it over and over again. We are only being negative just like someone is negative to a broken record player. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 07/24/2004 19:44:15 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 21:13:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
posted by coberst: Whenever you and your friends want to engage in a discussion of the isuue I will do so.
If only that were true. You ignore any attempt at discussion coberst, and just continue on.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2004 : 22:02:05 [Permalink]
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Coberst,
quote:
Wulfstan(me) said: It is ironic that Coberst has brought people together because of his failure to apprehend what other posters have said to him...no less than on two sites that encourage critical thinking.
Coberst, wherever you are out there in the WWW, I'd like to know what you think of this irony.
My question was actually in earnest and I find it odd (or ironic) that you invoke Socrates, yet you do not possess the purported warmth and fondness of humor known of Socrates . You know, the Greeks believed the understanding and recognition of eiron, (irony) to be a trait of high knowledge. Socrates further employed it, as I'm sure you and all here know (I'm not trying to be pedantic), with his method of Socratic irony as part of his dialectic method.
People (or what you call hecklers) are following you, MAYBE, because they want to see if something changes, because I believe they agree with your ideas of self-learning and critical thinking. I also believe they would like to see you be more like Socrates and engage in dialogue (i.e. Socrates's dialogue with Euthyphro about the definition of impiety and piety).
BTW, this is your best thread yet: http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2919
It my assertion that what might be the best thing for you to do as far as spreading Socrates's philosophies is to tell people to pick up an A to Z philosophy book or direct them to Plato, Aristophanes and Xenophon. Read several times. Five years later, read it again, and so on and so on. It appears that often you are being antithetical to Socrates's methods: I believe that if you do as Socrates did, then you will reach "us" better.
If people will humor me, I'd like to recap Socrates's ideas (and oddly, my father's name is Socrates). I know most of you all know this, but I'd like Coberst to understand that people here are aware of these ideas and that we earnestly try our best to put them into action and understanding in our daily lives.
From "From Socrates to Sartre, A History of Philosophy,"** I quote:
quote:
In the earliest dialogues in which this method is displayed, as, for example, Euthyphro, Socrates would feign ignorance about a subject and try to draw out from the other person the fullest possible knowledge about it. He considered this method of dialectic a kind of intellectual midwifery. His assumption was that by proressively correcting incomplete or inaccurate notions, one could coax the truth out of anyone. His reliance was solely upon the permanent structure of the soul, on man's capacity for knowing and recognizing lurking contradictions. Socrates would want to demonstrate that, too, believing that no unexamined idea is worth having any more than the unexamined life is worth living.(my emphasis)Some dialogues therefore end inconclusively, since Socrates was not concerned with imposing a set of dogmatic ideas upon the listener but with leading him through an orderly process of thought.
Some of Socrates's ideas (via second-hand info). My paraphrases below except where quoted:
Socrates thought...
**That rationality was a characteristic of man, therefore man should conduct his behavior, once he possesses this knowledge, in rational ways for the good of the soul.
**That those who commit acts of wrong-doing, do so out of ignorance; for if they understand the nature of man and the necessity of "the care of the soul" they would understand that stealing, for example, does not bring happiness or fulfill expectations. IOW, the person is just wrong about what brings or constitutes happiness.
**That facts alone do not constitute knowledge--that the interpretation of facts is equally important. "True knowledge is more than simply an inspection of facts. Knowledge has to do with the power of the mind to discover in facts the abiding elements that remain after the facts disappear. Beauty remains after the rose fades...facts can produce a variety of notions."
**Definitions were important to him. Clarifying a definition, a person's use of a word or words, is essential to clear thought, uncovering misinformation, biases and general stupidity (OK, the italics is mine).
**That there is an intelligble order to things; that everything has a purpose and function and acts accordingly to that function; that by understanding the nature of things we can uncover the order of things. (Me: Cicero later nailed down human nature and it has not changed).
**That knowledge is virtue and they go hand in hand--if you know what is good, then you must do good. "...vice or evil is the absence of knowledge."
Ok, that's enough, but that's the gist of most of Socrates's ideas. Coberst, I agree with your idea of self-learning, I agree with most of Socrates's ideas about "care for the soul", as most here probably do. And at times we all fail at being at our "critical thinking best" for a variety of reasons not solely due to unsophistication. But Socrates's best method was engaging others in dialogue so that they could SEE and UNDERSTAND their faulty thinking. I see people doing this on this board and the Bad Astronomy board right now.
So, I think it is best to dive right into a any subject and "be Socrates." It is worthy for you to pass your thoughts on CT and self-learning onto your community. I fear, however, that considering over 2,000 years ago Socrates's arguments couldn't even save him from the hemlock, the obstacles he faced then are no different than the ones CT thinking faces today.
**"Socrates to Sartre, a History of Philosophy," Samuel Enoch Stumpf, Vanderbilt University, ISBN 0-07-062326-0
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 01:46:25 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
I have been followed about by a roaming bunch of hecklers who spend all their energy making cute remarks. Whenever you and your friends want to engage in a discussion of the isuue I will do so. I will not engage in foolish banter going nowhere. Also it is my contention that if you do not attempt to understand a subject you are going to continue to be unsophisticated in that subject. The greatest handicap in approaching a new subject matter is to assume that you already know what it is about before you ever make an effort to understand what is being said. It seems to be a human characteristic to do a "turtle" at the approach of anything new. Being negative saves you the trouble of trying to understand what another is saying.
While I don't want to take away from the import of Wulfstan's post, I feel a need to point out that coberst's delusions are no more evident than they are in the above quote.
1) By coberst's definition of "heckling," he has been heckled on at least 60% or so of the forums to which he's posted his essays. To suggest that the same people are following him around making "cute remarks" on all these message boards is simply paranoid.
2) As others have noted already, people have attempted to engage coberst in serious discussion. This has resulted in little but a repetitiion of his premises and/or conclusions. That is not "discussion."
3) By relying on unexamined premises, coberst fails to demonstrate that he desires to go anywhere. Just like a car cannot run on bad fuel, a discussion cannot "move forward" upon bad premises, and becomes nothing but "foolish banter."
4) coberst refuses to understand any of the above three points, and so will remain unsophisticated about the above three points.
5) coberst has never made an attempt to understand what is being asked of him, and so is unable to overcome his own "greatest handicap."
6) Turtle, thy name is coberst.
7) coberst has been nothing but negative and/or uncomprehending about the responses he's recevied here. Same also for the BABB, as far as I've seen.
So, besides the BABB definitions I've seen for his name, I would suggest that the term 'coberst' epitomizes the "I am rubber, you are glue" phenomenon, in that every point made against him is simply reworded and spat back out at the general audience. "To coberst a point" would therefore mean "to apply your opponent's criticism of you to your opponent, without justification or comprehension." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 04:42:19 [Permalink]
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Wulfstan
I enjoyed the dscourse on Socrates. He certainly is a unique fellow and someone I find to be very interesting.
I have been rereading the Apology recently and after my encounters in these forums with hecklers I am very sympathetic with Socrates' fate as a result of the hecklers he faced. When one has encounters even remotley similiar to encounters that S faced one can be even more sympathetic.
I have a special attraction to S's admonition that the unexamined life is not worth living. Of course his statement is a bit hyperbolic but in essence I find it most enlightening. I am under the impression that one can learn the meaning of his advice but one cannot be taught such a message. Some things must be wrestled with on ones own enitiative. |
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