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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2004 : 04:46:15 [Permalink]
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Dave
It appears that the normal human response to a new meme is to take the turtle position. Because this position is somewhat irrational the neophobic choose to attack the messenger. If you notice most replies are negative and attack replies. One can easily see that the attacker makes no effort to understand the issue at hand. This an't rocket science. Anyone who wishes can easily develop an understanding of the issue if they wish. There are none so blind as he who will not see.
How does one handle hecklers? In the political arena hecklers are a constant and ignoring them seems to be the best policy. I suspect most of the hecklers are young people and find it to be great fun.
The didactic educational system makes students aware of questions only when the teacher has in hand the answer. In self-learning the self develops the questions and then searches for answers. Most all of us has known only didactic education and is not trained to go from question to answer unassisted. This is a new idea and the natural response is to turtle. After exposure to the new idea on many occasions, one is prepared to seek knowledge and understanding. We have always been passive acceptors of knowledge. To become aggressive seeks of knowledge takes some incubation time. Walking around for years with unanswered questions is unsettling.
Some people feel insulted by such facts. In some cases the general stated reality does not fit the individual. No one need wear a pair of shoes that do not fit.
You indicate that I am too quick to declare that ‘we agree to disagree'. The hecklers love to jump into the middle of a dispute that goes on and on unresolved. I do not wish to engage in an endless debate that cannot be resolved. After all who expects to change other peoples minds most of the time?
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 06:51:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
It appears that the normal human response to a new meme is to take the turtle position. Because this position is somewhat irrational the neophobic choose to attack the messenger.
He is only attacking the messenger because thats where the problem lies. We want you to discuss what you post here, to support your unsupported (and in many cases what I consider invalid) assertions, and show how these lead to your conclusions. You have failed to do all 3.
quote:
If you notice most replies are negative and attack replies. One can easily see that the attacker makes no effort to understand the issue at hand.
The problem is that we already understand the issue at hand, critical thinking. Does that mean we are experts at it? No. I understand evolution, but I'm no expert, I can't name the 38 seperate evolutionary lines of the eye. Same goes with critical thinking. One does not need to be an expert at it to understand it. And you have not tried to increase our knowlege on critical thinking in any way, all you say is that we need it and we can find places on the web where we can learn it.
quote:
The didactic educational system makes students aware of questions only when the teacher has in hand the answer.
Another unsupported (and false) assertion. In my school, there were many times when our teachers were explaining problems in the current fields of whatever the subject was. Abiogensis, whether Shakespeare intended for Macbeth to see the dagger in his mind or if it was really there, who fired the first bullet that started the Revolutionary War. These are all controversial topics to which we have discussed in school, none of which have a solid yes/no answer. Your assertion is wrong.
quote:
I do not wish to engage in an endless debate that cannot be resolved.
Then why post? Is that not what forums are for?
quote:
After all who expects to change other peoples minds most of the time?
I do.  |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 07/25/2004 06:53:31 |
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 09:32:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Coberst wrote:
Wulfstan
I enjoyed the dscourse on Socrates. He certainly is a unique fellow and someone I find to be very interesting.
I have been rereading the Apology recently and after my encounters in these forums with hecklers I am very sympathetic with Socrates' fate as a result of the hecklers he faced. When one has encounters even remotley similiar to encounters that S faced one can be even more sympathetic.
I have a special attraction to S's admonition that the unexamined life is not worth living. Of course his statement is a bit hyperbolic but in essence I find it most enlightening. I am under the impression that one can learn the meaning of his advice but one cannot be taught such a message. Some things must be wrestled with on ones own enitiative.
Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but you didn't address one of the main points I was making about Socrates; that he used his wisdom to teach others, to challenge people's arguments, etc. He had pupils.
Socrates spent many hours alone, often without taking food, but in the public arena he was a teacher. Those who are ignorant must be guided and led towards knowledge and critical thinking--it doesn't happen by osmosis. Socrates wouldn't have had "hecklers" if he didn't challenge people's arguments and I mentioned how he specifically challenged what piety and impiety is.
If you read Apology, then you must know that despite his brilliant arguments, it was his arrogance that brought on the sentence of death. These aren't hecklers on these two forums--they are mostly adults who at this point, I believe, are getting too tired of these "interventions" and so there's not much else to say. Soon, I suspect, no one will even reply.
I put up an article Chaloobi mentioned about education in the General Skepticism folder, called "Against School." Do you have any thoughts on that since education, self-learned or otherwise, seems to concern you?
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 12:08:57 [Permalink]
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| In the Apology S states rather strongly that he did not consider himself to be a teacher. He was also quite unhappy regarding the attempt by hecklers to insinuate that what he did was for money. He was very unhappy about the hecklers that constantly harrassed him. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 06:55:33 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
It appears that the normal human response to a new meme is to take the turtle position. Because this position is somewhat irrational the neophobic choose to attack the messenger. If you notice most replies are negative and attack replies. One can easily see that the attacker makes no effort to understand the issue at hand. This an't rocket science. Anyone who wishes can easily develop an understanding of the issue if they wish. There are none so blind as he who will not see.
Indeed, coberst. All of the above is applicable to you. You have been engaging in negative attacks against the messengers of a new meme of which you are terrified. Shall we go over the evidence of your blindness again?quote:
I suspect most of the hecklers are young people and find it to be great fun.
You suspect incorrectly. Once again, you demonstrate your inability for self-learning and critical thought, by not taking the time to confirm or deny your suspicions, even though the means of such verification are available to you.
The really pathetic part of all of this is that those whom I would consider to be "hecklers" now were, at one point in time, attempting to engage in discussion with you, coberst. You snubbed them, or told them that they weren't interested in critical thought or self-learning, and thus created the "hecklers" yourself.
But, I forgot: you're afraid to face that meme. I predict that you will not address it at all. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 08:35:19 [Permalink]
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coberst,
I imagine I am one of those you consider a heckler. Here is why I have resorted to humor. When I asked you a question, you ignored me. When I mentioned that you were coming across as condescending and arrogant, you ignored me. Time passed, and you started referring to negative people, but you weren't specific about who. You see, you always deal in generalities, except when you are specifically attacking the messengers that disagree with you.
You believe that repetition will open a closed mind. Well, I have seen evidence that humor will do so. Take for example the sitcom format. Archie Bunker was a great vehicle for political discourse that was funny.
When enough people that don't know each other disagree with you, you really must consider that you are either mistaken in your assertions, or you have not communicated them effectively. I know it's hard for you to admit you may not be perfect because you are so excited about what you've learned, but the reality is, you really need work on your communication skills. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 16:10:47 [Permalink]
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Sci Fi
When I have a half dozen hecklers around it is difficult to distinguish one from the other. I have encountered hecklers in the political arena and so this is not a new experience for me. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 18:03:55 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
...this is not a new experience for me.
I wouldn't doubt it. The thing you fail to comprehend is that the "hecklers" here have not been saying "negative" things just for the sake of being negative or to try to make you look foolish. You have assumed they are, based on your prejudices from your past experiences. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 21:06:45 [Permalink]
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Ok... is coberst really trying to compare himself to Socrates?
Somebody better make sure he's taking his meds. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 05:44:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Sci Fi
When I have a half dozen hecklers around it is difficult to distinguish one from the other. I have encountered hecklers in the political arena and so this is not a new experience for me.
Did you read anything past the first statement of what I wrote? |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:09:35 [Permalink]
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Sci Fi
Perhaps we can start over. I will forget that I condidered you to be a heckler and you can forget that you consider me to be a bad communicator. I will be happy to discussion matters of interest to both of us. It appears that many of the hecklers have grown tired of the game so maybe without all this noise we can start a new slate. |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:13:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Sci Fi
Perhaps we can start over. I will forget that I condidered you to be a heckler and you can forget that you consider me to be a bad communicator. I will be happy to discussion matters of interest to both of us. It appears that many of the hecklers have grown tired of the game so maybe without all this noise we can start a new slate.
Agreed. It wouldn't be the first time I got off on the wrong foot with someone. Let's begin again.  |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:40:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
SciFi Chick, I just want to remind you that Coberst got off on the wrong foot with every person at every forum he has posted at.
I know, but he seems to be responding to a few posters now, and I have a soft spot for senior citizens that are trying to learn the Internet, so I'm giving him another chance.  |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 05:21:32 [Permalink]
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A day late and a dollar short, but anyway...
Coberst said:
In the Apology S states rather strongly that he did not consider himself to be a teacher. He was also quite unhappy regarding the attempt by hecklers to insinuate that what he did was for money. He was very unhappy about the hecklers that constantly harrassed him.
Let's stay on topic with what my posts to you have been about. First off, Socrates stated twice, maybe three times that he was not a teacher who received money. The two points were always together. This is because he was accused (among a few other things) of corrupting young men, mainly Alcibiades, who gave traitorous information to the Spartans during the time of war with Athens.
Socrates clearly says he was not a teacher, but a philosopher, and these young men followed him around listening to him cross-examine and question people, but he didn't take money or be a teacher in any occupational sense. But was he a teacher? Of course! Please avail yourself of Merriam-Websters (the best online dictionary, imo).
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=teaches
He taught and he knew he was teaching those fine young men. My point to you is that his actions were pro-active. He was engaged and constantly challenged people who thought they knew more than they did. Read the Apology again--it's a great indictment on human nature.
Socrates tore up their arguments, made them feel like fools and this caused him to be not so popular among certain folk..."nobody likes a wise guy." He was a "gadfly," the term used in the Apology; he stirred things up, causing people mental discomfort, but he could argue a point well and those who "got" him, thought him wise.
Being like Socrates would be pointing out a person's specific arguments or ways of thinking and showing that person that they don't know as much as they think they know.
To pick somebody out, Dave is being like Socrates. Say you, Coberst, are an Athenian. Dave is Socrates. He's showing you that don't know as much as you think you do, at least about particular matters. Dave would be like Socrates--people thought Socrates was an atheist. He claimed he wasn't, but he certainly did question the world around him and did not necessarily agree with the State's gods. Dave challenges lazy thinking and people's arguments (as do others here too, of course). Dave challenges popularly-held ideas and beliefs.
Dave is Socrates.
Verlch is Meletos.
Coberst is Alcebiades.
The hecklers are non-existent. They are just annoyed that someone isn't being like Socrates at all (that would be you).
But I saw in another thread that you've decided to scrap the "hecklers idea," which I'm happy to hear.
I am also glad you mentioned Will's book before someone else beat you to it.
Progress? Maybe.
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