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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2004 :  11:40:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send SciFi Chick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

quote:
The ad was not put out by the Republicans and Bush cannot stop this ad unless he wants to supress free speech. There was not this much uproar over some of the MoveOn.org ads that also had falsehoods in them.


I guess the real question, at least in my mind, is does the freedom of speech include the freedom to lie? As of right now, I really haven't formulated an opinion on that.



It depends on what you're lying about. Libel is illegal.

"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2004 :  11:44:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

I guess the real question, at least in my mind, is does the freedom of speech include the freedom to lie? As of right now, I really haven't formulated an opinion on that.

It seems to me that historically in our country lying in political campaigns in the norm and accepted as free speech, but considered slander in the private sector. Just an observation.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2004 :  18:47:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Now the latest twisted suggestion, "self inflicted wounds."


Saw that live on Hardball..... then I guess the woman went on Rush's radio show later and said it to a more credulous audience.

It's pathetic. Kerry should get a pack of lawyers on that woman's ass and burn her down for that crap.

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2004 :  18:59:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
If I remember my media law correctly, libel is more difficult to prove when the subject is someone in the public eye. A public figure like Kerry would have to prove the libel-er acted with "actual malice," not just that the information was false.

For you citation seekers: New York Times v. Sullivan, 1964.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/press/press08.htm

So yep, we have the freedom to lie, but we can be sued for it.

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2004 :  19:09:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Yeah, but lawyers can hassle her to no end even if she isn't breaking a law.

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend

USA
424 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2004 :  21:44:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send NubiWan a Private Message
Well after wading thur this gunk a bit farther, seems one of Kerry's purple hearts is from a grenade he fired off, and got hit by the 'blowback.' Technically a "self inflicted wound," although the insinuation that he intended to wound himself, still reeks most lowly...

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  02:11:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan

Well after wading thur this gunk a bit farther, seems one of Kerry's purple hearts is from a grenade he fired off, and got hit by the 'blowback.' Technically a "self inflicted wound," although the insinuation that he intended to wound himself, still reeks most lowly...

And your point is?

This whole argument shows how distorted the attack on the man's character has become.

Here's the Boston Globe account put on a web site called "...vets against Kerry". These accounts give no indication of any insinuation of self infliction, nor does it matter that the wounds were not life threatening. Even these guys don't make Kerry look bad so I presume one has to lie or distort to do that. http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/kerry_pur_hrts.htm

Lets get perspective here folks. Remember Viet Nam. 54,000 Americans died in that war. It wasn't pleasant. Kerry did his part. If he chose to leave early based on the technicality of minor wounds which met the criteria to leave, what is wrong with that? Sheesh, Bush has to defend not even showing up for the National Guard by claiming he 'met the requirements' of time served.

I worked against the war at the time. Kerry should be able to use his activism proudly. Instead, he has to put up with holdovers who just can't get over the fact that not all the things the US has done have been 'good'. Look at Viet Nam today. Does it look like a repressive regime of communists we were supposedly fighting? Of course not. Because we were fighting to keep the French colonialist land and resource owners from having to give back their supposed property to the Vietnamese.

The distortion of the facts behind the Vietnam War are as bad as the distortion of the facts of any of the science topics discussed here.

Sorry to get off topic...the whole thing brings up bad memories and the attack on people who stood up for their convictions and protested the war is ignorant of the facts. Like the governor of Ohio saying the kids killed at Kent State deserved it....ahhh..must stop...can't stand it...sigh, OK, I'm back in control now.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/21/2004 02:14:00
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  03:50:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Renae

If I remember my media law correctly, libel is more difficult to prove when the subject is someone in the public eye. A public figure like Kerry would have to prove the libel-er acted with "actual malice," not just that the information was false.

For you citation seekers: New York Times v. Sullivan, 1964.

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/press/press08.htm

So yep, we have the freedom to lie, but we can be sued for it.




Correct. Every now and then, we read of a suit being tossed due to the public stature of the subject. One might think of it as a sort of 'too easy a target' law.

I am pleased to note that the Swift Boat Twits for Twaddle are getting burned in much of the press. I think that Bush has made a tactical error in not denouncing these clowns right off the bat, even though their support is directly through large, Republican donations.



Edited to add this:

quote:
CRAWFORD, Texas -- A volunteer for John Kerry said Friday he picked up a flier in a Bush-Cheney campaign office in Gainesville, Fla., promoting Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group the Bush campaign has insisted for weeks it has no connection to.

The Kerry campaign e-mailed the flier to news organizations Friday, declaring that the Bush- Cheney campaign was ''busted'' for coordinating ''in their smear campaign against John Kerry.''



It goes on to describe Republican denials of ever having seen the offending flier. Has someone a bullet hole in a foot?

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-camp21.html

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 08/21/2004 04:03:17
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  06:00:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
In further evidence that the Bush administration is manipulative and dirty:

http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12746147&BRD=1710&PAG=461&dept_id=99784&rfi=6

Now the Bushies are accusing Kerry of "losing his cool." Hmmm. Yeah, why would someone become angry because bitter men still fighting the Vietnam war have demeaned his service and courage?

Sick. Sick, I tell you.

I hope this isn't a threadjack, but here's an interesting article on how Cheney et al use our primal instincts against us, effectively bypassing reasoning and critical thinking:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-13.htm

Serious question: Am I the only one who is increasingly chilled at this administration's determination to be re-elected at any cost? As in, worried? If they're capable of smearing Max Cleland, John McCain, and Kerry for their military service, what else are they capable of?
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  07:45:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
This whole bit about Kerry and and war is complex. Some of is can be cleared up at this article from the non-partisan FactCheck.org site.

More partisan, but just as useful is the analysis provided by Media Matters, where they have scores of articles posted in real time about this smear campaign.

It's important to keep in mind that back on the first of August, the New York Times had a front page piece on how the Bush campaign was going to spend the weeks leading up to the convention portraying Kerry as "an object of humor and calculated derision."

In other words, attacks like this, as well as the campaign's lies about Kerry being "sensitive", are all part of a calculated plan to steer the conversation away from actual issues-- where Bush certainly loses-- to insults and lies, which are almost impossible to counter.

This is the same plan the Bush people used against Gore in 2000, and it looks like they're going to do it again in 2004. Let's hope it doesn't work this time around.
Edited by - Cuneiformist on 08/23/2004 07:04:38
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  08:48:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick

quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

If we could educate the public how not to be misled we wouldn't have to worry about this kind of manipulation. I'm sure the Republicans know full well the ad will stick with a few people despite it being so dishonest.

The ad was not put out by the Republicans and Bush cannot stop this ad unless he wants to supress free speech. There was not this much uproar over some of the MoveOn.org ads that also had falsehoods in them.



Bush could denounce it, as Kerry did over a certain ad that lied about Bush.



He Has.http://www.cnn.tv/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/12/lkl.00.html

quote:
KING: Oh, so it is. But, I mean, Senator McCain has asked to be condemned, the attack on his service. What do you say to that?

G. BUSH: Well, I say they ought to get rid of all those 527s, independent expenditures that have flooded the airwaves.

There have been millions of dollars spent up until this point in time. I signed a law that I thought would get rid of those, and I called on the senator to -- let's just get anybody who feels like they got to run to not do so.

KING: Do you condemn the statements made about his...

G. BUSH: Well, I haven't seen the ad, but what I do condemn is these unregulated, soft-money expenditures by very wealthy people, and they've said some bad things about me. I guess they're saying bad things about him. And what I think we ought to do is not have them on the air. I think there ought to be full disclosure. The campaign funding law I signed I thought was going to get rid of that. But evidently the Federal Election Commission had a different view.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  09:19:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Edited to add this:

quote:
CRAWFORD, Texas -- A volunteer for John Kerry said Friday he picked up a flier in a Bush-Cheney campaign office in Gainesville, Fla., promoting Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group the Bush campaign has insisted for weeks it has no connection to.

The Kerry campaign e-mailed the flier to news organizations Friday, declaring that the Bush- Cheney campaign was ''busted'' for coordinating ''in their smear campaign against John Kerry.''



It goes on to describe Republican denials of ever having seen the offending flier. Has someone a bullet hole in a foot?

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-camp21.html



A flier in a campaign office is enough evidence to link Bush with the Swift boat's?

quote:
Financed by a Texas businessman with longtime ties to prominent Republicans in the state, including President Bush, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth sponsored an ad featuring several Vietnam veterans who accuse Kerry of lying about his actions in Vietnam.
Of course rich republicans support and have contributed to this ad. They want Bush to win. Democrates will not support it. Rich democrates with links to Kerry give money to MoveOn.org because they want Kerry to win. Is this a big surprise? It doesn't mean the Bush or Kerry canpaign are behind any of the ads.

Indirect links like this and the flier were established between Saddam and Al Queda. Most democrates now, and I would beleive most who post here, don't think that was evidence that Saddam helped Al Queda to do any terrorist attacks. But now of course Bush is behind the swift boat ads because of the same kind of indirect link. Nice.
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  10:06:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
It seems to me by your quote that Bush is condemning the 527s in general, not the ad specifically. Like a typical dry drunk, he's only concerned with how the ads criticize *him*. Both Democrats and Republicans seem to let the 527s do the dirty work while they appear to be above the fray. Kinda like Good Cop/Bad Cop.

The ties are more than circumstantial, I'm afraid. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are funded by contributors to the Bush campaign. "Truth" my size 4 ass.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  10:20:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Seems to me that Kerry running on his war accomplishments is a mistake. Running as a Republican is a mistake. While Kerry may have used that in the beginning to show that he actually did something that Bush, our "War President" didn't do, too much attention has been made on what now looks like a pissing match to see who is the most macho. 'Cept Bush isn't running on his war record.

When Kerry said he would have voted to send troops to Iraq even if the WMD evidence wasn't there, I could only hang my head and think about how Gore snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by running a stupid campaign. If Kerry thinks he will win by showing that he would make exactly the same wrong headed decision's as Bush, we are lost...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2004 :  17:12:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Edited to add this:

quote:
CRAWFORD, Texas -- A volunteer for John Kerry said Friday he picked up a flier in a Bush-Cheney campaign office in Gainesville, Fla., promoting Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group the Bush campaign has insisted for weeks it has no connection to.

The Kerry campaign e-mailed the flier to news organizations Friday, declaring that the Bush- Cheney campaign was ''busted'' for coordinating ''in their smear campaign against John Kerry.''



It goes on to describe Republican denials of ever having seen the offending flier. Has someone a bullet hole in a foot?

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-camp21.html



A flier in a campaign office is enough evidence to link Bush with the Swift boat's?

quote:
Financed by a Texas businessman with longtime ties to prominent Republicans in the state, including President Bush, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth sponsored an ad featuring several Vietnam veterans who accuse Kerry of lying about his actions in Vietnam.
Of course rich republicans support and have contributed to this ad. They want Bush to win. Democrates will not support it. Rich democrates with links to Kerry give money to MoveOn.org because they want Kerry to win. Is this a big surprise? It doesn't mean the Bush or Kerry canpaign are behind any of the ads.

Indirect links like this and the flier were established between Saddam and Al Queda. Most democrates now, and I would beleive most who post here, don't think that was evidence that Saddam helped Al Queda to do any terrorist attacks. But now of course Bush is behind the swift boat ads because of the same kind of indirect link. Nice.



Ues, but isn't passing that flier a violation of campaign laws? Just asking.

Further, there has been so much crap coming out of this administration, that I'd put little past them. They give a whole, new meaning to, 'the pits.'


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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