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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2004 : 16:46:33 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
Like I stated so nicely before, evoltution is still a theory. It never will be a fact. It is based on assumptions and therefore should be regarded with second glances.
You're wrong, but you've been shown so before, and it had no effect. I don't expect this to, either...
Evolution can be seen around us, all the time. It is a fact.
The theory of evolution explains the fossil record, and much more. It will never be a fact because it is an explanation.
You refuse to even make an attempt at understanding this.
I can't imagine how terrifying your world must be, in which every inconvenient observation of how the world is which conflicts with how you think the world ought to be must - in your words - be destroyed. God has you scared pantsless, doesn't He? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2004 : 21:51:52 [Permalink]
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| It appears that verlch still conflates "theory" with "wild guess". After the multitude of explanations he's been given here if he still refuses to understand, then it can only be intentional ignorance. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2004 : 22:30:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Listen Doc,
Like I stated so nicely before, evolution is still a theory. It never will be a fact. It is based on assumptions and therefore should be regarded with second glances.
Time and time again you have been told that "a theory" as in the theory of biological evolution is not "theory" like you think it is.
In science, "a theory" is a description and an explanation of what actually happens, based on evidence gathered during experimentation (and/or otherwise).
In common usage, (and Verlch-usage) the expression "theory" means something made up, to explain something.
Verlch, notice the difference between these two. Common-usage term "theory" actually means approximately "hypothesis" in science-language.
You really need to learn the distinction between the two if you want to talk to us, because this is something important for us.
When I hear "evolution is still a theory" it makes me want to puke because it means that the one saying it doesn't know what science is all about.
I want to help you understand science. I have said this before, but I think it needs repeating: You have been fed lies about the theory of evolution. However, we are here to help you understand science and evolution.
I do not expect you to stop believing in the Bible.
I do not expect you to stop believing in God and Jesus.
I do not expect you to accept the theory of evolution.
I just want you to know what the theory of evolution actually teach, so when you criticise it, you are criticising valid points of it and not straw-men or false ideas of it.
When I criticise things in the bible, I don't make up untrue stories about Jesus, before moving on to say that those stories that the bible teach is crap. Instead, I take out my Bible from the book-case and read it. This way I gather first hand information about what the bible says.
I don't go to my friend Stefan Bergstrand* ,who hates the bible more than anyone I know, and ask him for info on how and why the bible is false. That person have an invested interest in misrepresenting the Bible, and as such, is not a reliable source.
Before I can criticise the Bible, I must first read enough of it before I can form an opinion of it.
When someone atheist say to me "the Bible teaches this and that..." I don't accept it just like that, even though I myself is more atheist than agnostic. I go and read the bible, or ask a Christian person if the statement is true or false.
This is what I expect from you, and I hope I'm not expecting too much:
You should do the same. When some creationist (like Kent Hovind, or Duane Gish) say "evolution says that mud became life by pure chance" you should go and ask an evolutionist if such a statement really is true.
Then perhaps we can explain to you, so you understand, why such a statement is true or false. Together we have a considerable abount of knowledge that we will be happy to share.
*the story you have been told is true, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/16/2004 22:37:20 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 01:51:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Like I stated so nicely before, evoltution is still a theory. It never will be a fact. It is based on assumptions and therefore should be regarded with second glances.
I'm gonna agree with verlch on this one, to a point at least. Everything should be given a second look, or a third, or as many as it takes to get at the truth of the matter.
Now verlch, please explain how the ToE is based on 'assumptions'. Do give examples of how the fossil lineage of, say, Equus has been misinterpreted.
Also please explain how the Garden of Eden and the Noahian Flood are anything but assumptions made by an ancient society in the lands where the opium poppy thrives.
Further, if you have them (yeah, right!), please give evidences in support of the latter claim and debunking the former. We do it for you and fair is fair.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 21:08:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Like I stated so nicely before, evoltution is still a theory. It never will be a fact. It is based on assumptions and therefore should be regarded with second glances.
I'm gonna agree with verlch on this one, to a point at least. Everything should be given a second look, or a third, or as many as it takes to get at the truth of the matter.
Now verlch, please explain how the ToE is based on 'assumptions'. Do give examples of how the fossil lineage of, say, Equus has been misinterpreted.
Also please explain how the Garden of Eden and the Noahian Flood are anything but assumptions made by an ancient society in the lands where the opium poppy thrives.
Further, if you have them (yeah, right!), please give evidences in support of the latter claim and debunking the former. We do it for you and fair is fair.
Creation states that God created the world, before the flood I don't think there was any fossils on dry land. Know, after the flood there are millions. The earth is a vast place covered by water, before the flood there wasn't this much water. All that water you see is from the Noah flood several thousand years ago. Again where is your really really old fossilized trees, nowhere to be found. 2000 year old fossils and below!!!
My father has been all over the western hemisphere studing various things with a Dr., that I will get his name in a few. The flood was global, and the bible says, and by faith I believe.
It doesn't matter what I post in front of your noses, you will say a few things and call it debunked!! Again I choose to not obtain my existance from monkies and apes, and choose to have Angels of God as my cousins!!! Not four legged beasts of the field. What a joke!!
Evolution can not answer some of the basic questions it should take to change a theory into a fact. If you can prove evolution I will give you 1,000,000 dollars of my own hard earned money!!! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 21:57:16 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
Evolution can not answer some of the basic questions it should take to change a theory into a fact.
That's because you're asking the wrong questions, and incorrectly expecting that theories somehow become facts. They don't. Ever. Until you understand that, you'll never be able to ask a question which might be able to undermine evolutionary theory. Your questions simply miss the mark - by a lot.quote:
It doesn't matter what I post in front of your noses, you will say a few things and call it debunked!!
And it doesn't matter what we post in response, since by faith, you believe. If you're not going to allow yourself to change your mind, expecting that anyone else might change their mind is hypocritical. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 22:15:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Again where is your really really old fossilized trees, nowhere to be found.
You pump them into your gas tank everytime you stop at a Shell station.
Or some can be found here: quote:
http://www.aegean.gr/petrified_forest/Frames/HTML/English/petriforest.htm#significant
So... unless the flood in your storybook happened 15 million years ago....
quote:
The earth is a vast place covered by water, before the flood there wasn't this much water. All that water you see is from the Noah flood several thousand years ago.
Did somebody mention poppy plants? verlch seems to have been chewing on the leaves or something.... |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 22:17:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
The earth is a vast place covered by water, before the flood there wasn't this much water. All that water you see is from the Noah flood several thousand years ago.
So where did the water come from?
quote:
The flood was global, and the bible says, and by faith I believe.
Certainly not by evidence.
quote:
Evolution can not answer some of the basic questions it should take to change a theory into a fact. If you can prove evolution I will give you 1,000,000 dollars of my own hard earned money!!!
What do you mean? Why must a theory be able to explain everything? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 03:40:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Like I stated so nicely before, evoltution is still a theory. It never will be a fact. It is based on assumptions and therefore should be regarded with second glances.
I'm gonna agree with verlch on this one, to a point at least. Everything should be given a second look, or a third, or as many as it takes to get at the truth of the matter.
Now verlch, please explain how the ToE is based on 'assumptions'. Do give examples of how the fossil lineage of, say, Equus has been misinterpreted.
Also please explain how the Garden of Eden and the Noahian Flood are anything but assumptions made by an ancient society in the lands where the opium poppy thrives.
Further, if you have them (yeah, right!), please give evidences in support of the latter claim and debunking the former. We do it for you and fair is fair.
Creation states that God created the world, before the flood I don't think there was any fossils on dry land. Know, after the flood there are millions. The earth is a vast place covered by water, before the flood there wasn't this much water. All that water you see is from the Noah flood several thousand years ago. Again where is your really really old fossilized trees, nowhere to be found. 2000 year old fossils and below!!!
My father has been all over the western hemisphere studing various things with a Dr., that I will get his name in a few. The flood was global, and the bible says, and by faith I believe.
It doesn't matter what I post in front of your noses, you will say a few things and call it debunked!! Again I choose to not obtain my existance from monkies and apes, and choose to have Angels of God as my cousins!!! Not four legged beasts of the field. What a joke!!
Evolution can not answer some of the basic questions it should take to change a theory into a fact. If you can prove evolution I will give you 1,000,000 dollars of my own hard earned money!!!
Great, jumpin', jinglin' Jesus! We're back on the fucking trees again! And he's now gone Hovind on us, to boot. :roll eyes:
Ok, here's trees from the the Jurassic and the Cretaceous:
quote:
The Fossil Forest, west of Lulworth Cove, Dorset, southern England, is a classic geological locality with the remains and moulds of late Jurassic or early Cretaceous coniferous trees rooted in a palaeosol (ancient soil), the Great Dirt Bed. Above the trees is stromatolitic limestone and over this the unusual Broken Beds, a limestone breccia that was originally evaporitic.
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/forest.htm
These are a just tad more than 2,000 years old, but I'm sure you won't learn about them by reading the site. It does, after all, demonstrate (gasp) science.
I'm sure I can find older shrubbery, if called upon to do so; even enough to satisfy the Knights Who Say ‘Neap.'.
Do you got $1,000,000? What are the terms of your challenge? Are you going to cause me to laugh at you as I do Kent 'The Cretin of Creation' Hovind?
And by the way, you have yet to answer my request:
quot |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 06:34:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Again I choose to not obtain my existance from monkies and apes, and choose to have Angels of God as my cousins!!!
Sorry, bub, you don't get to choose. You are what you are, and you came frome where you came from, regardless of what you believe. You don't get to choose about electromagnetism, gravity, thermodynamics, physics, or chemistry either. The hard work is in figuring out how all this stuff actually works. Obviously, you're not up to the task. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 15:12:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
This is what I expect from you, and I hope I'm not expecting too much:
Obviously I expected too much.
How goes that saying about hope? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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