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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2004 : 22:09:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Some fertility clinics already use genetic screening to eliminate the major genetic diseases (like Downs). As the technology progresses more screening options are likely to become available.
That's where it starts... And a possible future would be like the movie Gattaca (IMDB-link). It's a good and thought-provoking movie, I hope you take my advice and rent it if you haven't seen it already. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 01:07:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I was trying to say that you came this [holds up thumb and forefinger a hair apart] close to what I thought was a core issue. I wasn't attempting to criticize.
Naw, I didn't take it as criticism. It is in fact the core issue. I was trying to make that point myself, though somehow in all my explanation I never quite got around to stating it outright. Basically, you got across what I was trying to say more clearly and with far less words.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/14/2004 01:07:56 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 08:03:55 [Permalink]
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IMHO, I feel that it is obvious the genetics has some influance on development, of course in some people it has no effect and some it has a great effect (for example a 6' 8" 350lb man having sons of a similar size)
I also feel that behavior and intelligence for the vast majority of people is determined by environment, a term which cannot and should not be reduced to such simplicity as 'a poor family'. Thousands upon thousands of things determine personality and intelligence not just being poor or italian or left handed etc.
I am sick of people pretending that all humans are born the same, they worry about racists and fools abusing the information to suit their purposes. Well I got news for ya, just because racists abuse certain information doesnt mean it isnt true. Pretending that blacks dont win the 100 meter every year or Nordic whites dont win the strong man compitition or that northeastern africans dont win 90% of long distance races only hinders our understanding of subtle human differences. Humans developed in different areas with different foods, diseases and physical requirements. For those who think evolution to believe we all start the same is silly, creationists I can understand. In other words Hutus =/= Mongolians, maybe someday when the fabled melting pot becomes homogenous.
I think genetics has little to do with intelligence and personality because the brain development is so heavily linked to input. That and I have seen no solid evidence to the contrary.
Unfortunatly it is another issue which has no short answer, which the public demands.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 09/14/2004 08:06:08 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 11:36:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
And a possible future would be like the movie Gattaca
Gattica presumes a very slippery slope as a basis for one of it's main themes. Just because we are able to screen out genes for disease and select genes for positive traits does not equal a society that discriminates heavily against those who haven't been screened. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2004 : 20:32:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I also feel that behavior and intelligence for the vast majority of people is determined by environment, a term which cannot and should not be reduced to such simplicity as 'a poor family'. Thousands upon thousands of things determine personality and intelligence not just being poor or italian or left handed etc.
"In the case of intelligence tests, it can be stated that, as indicated by several researches, genetic inheritance is responsible of about 50% of a child's variation with respect to the average, but this value increases with age. Identical twins show a high degree of correlation in their scores, even when they are reared apart. Instead, there is no relation between the intelligence of adopted children and that of the biological sons of the same family. It can then be stated that heredity has a great influence in the intelligence of a person." Taken from http://self-improvement.mindfocus.net/hic100.php
I think some variation of the Gattica scenario is inevitable |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2004 : 21:57:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think some variation of the Gattica scenario is inevitable
I find it very unlikely that the discrimination depicted in Gattica will ever be a reality. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 05:23:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
There are many exceptions to pit-bulls being aggressive.
Pitbulls were bred to be dog aggressive, and dog aggressive only. Their aggression towards other of the same species is inherent and has to be trained out of the dog. Even so, it's recommended by professional breeders that you keep the dogs apart from each other and don't ever let them mingle with smaller dogs without supervision, unless they've grown together - even so, the dog has to be trained out of its aggression. It functions just as a herding dog's desire to herd, a hunting dog desiring to hunt, etc.
Human aggression, however, is in most of cases due to bad treatment, such as the dog being beaten or harassed by the victim/owner/humans in general, poorly socialised, etc. In general, a well-cared pitbull won't attack humans, since they were bred out of that trait (for the simple reason a fighting dog would've to be tended by a total stranger, even when it's severaly hurt - if the dog showed aggression towards people, it was immediatly shot down, so say the breeders).
Of course, there are exceptions to both cases, but in the majority, that's how it is.
I believe the same can be applied to humans, as it's been discussed before. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 06:17:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I also feel that behavior and intelligence for the vast majority of people is determined by environment, a term which cannot and should not be reduced to such simplicity as 'a poor family'. Thousands upon thousands of things determine personality and intelligence not just being poor or italian or left handed etc.
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"In the case of intelligence tests, it can be stated that, as indicated by several researches, genetic inheritance is responsible of about 50% of a child's variation with respect to the average, but this value increases with age. Identical twins show a high degree of correlation in their scores, even when they are reared apart. Instead, there is no relation between the intelligence of adopted children and that of the biological sons of the same family. It can then be stated that heredity has a great influence in the intelligence of a person." Taken from http://self-improvement.mindfocus.net/hic100.php
Unfortunatly the link does not supply references to check, How many "twins reared apart" could they have tested? Ten pairs is far too small a sample and I find it hard to believe they found many more than that to test.
Dont get me wrong I do not assume that it is all environment or that heredity cant play a major role, just that it doesnt in most cases.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 10:11:23 [Permalink]
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| "As you can see, the strongest correlations can be found among identical twins, who are genetically identically to one another. This suggests a powerful genetic influence. Even when they do not grow up together, the correlation is higher than the correlation for any other pair except for that of identical twins who do grow up together. Because the correlation is not 1.00 (the highest possible), however, we know that the genes do not exert 100% control over IQ. The genetic predisposition is a very powerful influence, possibly stronger than any other single factor, but is not the only influence." Taken from http://www.hsu.edu/faculty/langlet/lectures/intelligence/heredity_IQ.htm |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 10:39:14 [Permalink]
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Better but it still doesnt say how large the data sets are...
Dont bother proving me wrong, which I probably am. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 19:05:47 [Permalink]
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| Actually I'm mostly messing with ya BPS. You can find varying studies to suit your bias. That being said looking at many studies the consensus does seem to lean towards heredity. How much? Don't know. My feeling is it's in the ballpark of 60/40 - 65/35 heredity. I'm talking potential here. Can a kid with parents who's IQ's average 85 become an MD....probably.....could he become one of the greatest theoretical physicists of our time....probably not. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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