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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2004 : 07:17:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ricky:
I am not afraid of the “big evil skeptic”, in fact, I rejoice that these wonderful people are here on Earth.
Thanks! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 07:48:50 [Permalink]
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Nice post Ricky. You have summed up what most skeptics are all about nicely.
H.H.- If those guys really think they are going to make money off that scam..... They are going to be in for a shock.
I'd like to be proven wrong, collect my $1k from the guy, and then invest and retire myself.... but I don't think I'll ever see that $1k. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 09:20:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Nice post Ricky. You have summed up what most skeptics are all about nicely.
H.H.- If those guys really think they are going to make money off that scam..... They are going to be in for a shock.
I'd like to be proven wrong, collect my $1k from the guy, and then invest and retire myself.... but I don't think I'll ever see that $1k.
Indeed. It is said that the last refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism (actually, it's the first). In arguements, a wager is the final refuge of the desperate -- "I'll put money on it!!."
I hope this little discussion we've had here has caused some folks to sit down and think before they blow their roll on pretty promises.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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lapcus
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 21:39:33 [Permalink]
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well..well..well..as with my last post ill respond to each one point at a time...
Valiant Dancer- I see. So you are applying documentary criteria to discussion boards. Propaganda implies a deliberate bad act. No such malice was intended and the improper posting was due to error. What damage has been done? What possible damage can be implied by a message board expressing skepticism about a dubious investment scheme can there be? Are we actively denouncing the scheme on other forums? No. Are we commissioning ads about it? No.
Lapcus - ok point taken...if you truly ment that as a mistake. Ill leave it at that.
Valiant Dancer- The main concerns of secrecy of holdings, the assessment of lincensure laws as compared to US licensure laws, and the history of governmental oversight in Malaysia continue to be issues. A number of posters who insist that it cannot be a scam and the owners are above reproach is illogical.
Lapcus- and that is the difference between Maylasian laws and US laws. I didnt say that this program is beyond reproach. But..when does a company stop being a "potential scam" and start be a creditable company. This company has been around for years. This 2% program has been around for over almost a year. I wonder do you still call Microsoft a scam?? How about volvo? I encountered people like you long before I came to this board. When i frist mention this program...those people yelled *SCAM* ...when i quite my job....they still yelled *SCAM*. And now 3 and a half months later. People are still hollering (not just you) *SCAM*. I mean people you act as if Im not making any money. If you had over $18,000 as a return on investment due to this program and someone came to you and said "it is a fake. you will lose all your money. It is a scam." Do you "honestly" think that you would go "ohh my...its a scam..what am i gonna do?"....will you?
Valiant Dancer- I already believe from the way "defenders" react to critism of their scam that it is likely a Ponzi scheme due to the secretive nature of the plan and the recruitment efforts. What am I supposed to "accept"?
Lapcus- from the way other "defenders" react?!?!?!...is that the kind of "evidence" you need to dub this a scam? And also this program does not need new people for it to keep going. Acutaly there was a post in the PIPS forum sugesting closing the doors to new members. I was all for that. As far as the secretive nature....from what you just said above I dont belive that there is anything no one can do to convice you that this is legit. Even if the CEO came and flew you to thier headquaters you still wouldnt be convinced.
Valiant Dancer- If you aren't trying to convince us that this isn't a scam, then why did you post?
Lapcus- ?!?!?!!? have you not read what was posted in the past...this is the 3rd time i will say this....i will qoute from a earlier post of mine. "earlier post from Lapcus- Honestly....you can join or not...it really doesnt effect me....(hint im not trying to recruit you). Someone posted this link in the PIPS forum..so i checked it out. Amazed at the amount of ignorance, I decided to post."
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Dave W.- It is, of course, divisive statements like the above which lead one to believe that you've got a religious-live fanatacism for PIPS. It is, after all, you who are fostering an "us-versus-them" atmosphere.
Lapcus- Us vs them?? religious-live fanatacism ?!?!!? You divined that by me defending PIPS? oops i shouldnt have used the word "divine"..for fear of being called a fanatic...sigh....
Dave W.- And to top it off, nobody here in public has asked for you to divulge the identities of anyone you've emailed. All they've asked for is the information you felt free to email out, but are reluctant to post for all to see.
Lapcus- ah! I was just anticipating you. I said earlier that i sent "someone" a buttload of info. I felt that someone was gonna say. "who is this person?...i need names, phone numbers, SS numbes and birth certificates before I believe anyone ask you for information...these people are not real....i dont believe you!!" 
Dave W.- Heck, we had no need to know that you'd emailed three people. Why did you volunteer that information?
Lapcus- sigh...... Why ask why?
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Dr. Mabuse- You can buy a clue for $1000.
Actually, you can get the clue for free: It's stated right under my name and avatar.
Lapcus- oops ... right on....i didnt even notice...
Dr. Mabuse- I'm halfway to senility soon, I've manage to forget at least half of what I've learned there.
Lapcus- of all the things Ive learned at school....one thing is certian "they tried to teach us how to be sheep" I was ment for much more than that...
Dr. Mabuse- I'm sorry, but I can't decode this. My English skills aren't that advanced.
Lapcus- oops misspelling on my part..sorry. corrected : I *know* what is offered in colledge courses. I dont know about yours.
Dr. Mabuse- "I'm doing my part...."
Is greed so integrated in your society that you can not accept that people can do such things without first looking after number one first?
Lapcus- to sum it all up Doc. ....yes it is... I admire you. Over here in the USA kids have to grow up way too fast..... We come out being kind hearted and genorous ...until we find out about hatred and greed. So many of us nurture our dreams at a young age....then have those dreams die. A sad fate...but its apart of our society.
And for those who live here that would say otherwise (for i know its comming) ..they either lived shealtered lives or never lived in a large city......dont get me wrong I love america. The land of technology, independence and freedom. You just have to take the good along with the bad.
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@tomic- See that? You just took on the job of defining words on your own and put Webster out of work.
Lapcus- what makes you happy @tomic ? Do you have a family? Friends? Loved ones? Have you ever sat at your job and longed to be with them? Longed to do things that you want to do instead of the 9-5 routine? Now picture what would you do if you didnt have to endure things that you dont want to in order to pay bills or survive?
This is one of the dreams of mine that is now a reality.
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filthy- I don't know, but doubt it. I'd thought I'd made that clear in my previous post. Sometimes, I don't get across as well as I think I do. Sorry 'bout that.
Lapcus- you did...i must have missed it...i had just re-read what you said ealier...sorry about that.
filthy- So tell me, what does the investment manager at your bank think of it? Believe me, if it is on the level, he'd break a leg getting you into it. O'course, you'd have to pay a bit of a commision, but it would be as nothing compared to what you'd make.
Lapcus- funny you should ask....im at a credit union...and due to a few people who I told about this wiring money from this same bank, a bank manager inquired about what is going on because several people had done this recently (when i quite my job some co workers who bank at the same bank asked me about it and started it as well) ..she had opened up 3 accounts in this program...one for her and 2 for her two children. But then again...is all hearsay...i never confronted this bank lady...i was just told this by a friend/former coworker who got into PIPS.
filthy- I have a modest investment fund. T'ain't much, but is what I plan to leave behind to my kids when I croak. I have known the folks at my bank for many years -- we're on a first n |
| Edited by - lapcus on 10/14/2004 23:02:46 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 23:04:39 [Permalink]
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I can't read all that Lapcus, too hard to find the point amid all that rambling.
For me, and I think most of the rest of the skeptics on the board, we've seen this scam many times. We've seen the sad persons whining on the news about how they were scammed. And, we've been amazed at how yet another person fails to learn from other's mistakes.
To think we are judging based only on the descriptions presented here without any additional experience is stupid.
But why you've become so defensive as to write pages, now that's odd. I have no clue what that's about.
As to earning millions without working hard, lots of people do that. You could win the lottery, inherit wealth, invent something or become famous in movies or sports, though the last three usually work very hard to get there, sometimes they get lucky. You could have bought a whole lot of Microsoft stock in the 70s or whenever it was that company started.
The scam being used here is probably making the sponsors lots of money. And I doubt they are working hard. But the investors aren't going to make money. And I am not guessing, I know from paying attention to the world as it goes by me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 03:27:01 [Permalink]
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| Lapcus, have you done the math on this? Do you see how quickly at 2 percent a day this company would be paying out more money than there is in the world? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 05:33:17 [Permalink]
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lapcus wrote:quote:
Lapcus- Us vs them?? religious-live fanatacism ?!?!!? You divined that by me defending PIPS? oops i shouldnt have used the word "divine"..for fear of being called a fanatic...sigh....
No, I find your defense of PIPS to be religious-like because of the fervor with which you defend it, and the words you use. After all, if you were more calm and rational about the subject, you probably wouldn't have bothered to post here at all. But, you apparently felt that PIPS was being attacked unfairly, and required defense, much like people defend the Bible or God, when neither require defense if they're correct.quote:
Lapcus- ah! I was just anticipating you. I said earlier that i sent "someone" a buttload of info. I felt that someone was gonna say. "who is this person?...i need names, phone numbers, SS numbes and birth certificates before I believe anyone ask you for information...these people are not real....i dont believe you!!"
Well, what a shame that your prediction was incorrect.quote:
Lapcus- sigh...... Why ask why?
Indeed. If your answers are going to be so information-free, why should we bother asking you anything?
Later on...quote:
...for i can accept people who ask "how".....but it makes my blood boil when people are *like* "its fake....ive made up my mind..I dont want to hear nothing else about it...its a scam"
here are some examples...
Nice to see that I'm not in your examples. You'll note, perhaps, that I've asked you (and another PIPS defender) several questions in this thread, and received no substantive answers (except to the butt-wiping joke). And folks like Ricky and H. Humbert are, apparently, less than impressed with what you sent them via email.
So - perhaps - you'll realize that with such a poor track record of actually providing information (despite your obvious ability to type volumes), people here aren't going to necessarily be inclined to take anything you say seriously. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 05:51:13 [Permalink]
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The market is a bit weird and frankly, I can't claim to understand it. So, my investment account is in the hands of someone who does. For this service, I pay him a commission. I do not bitch about Kevin's commission because I am averaging some 15% on the investment. It's been as low as 8% (thank you Mr. Bush) and as high as 22% (all too rarely, but better days are a'comin'). All of the dividends go back in to the account principal. A little ways down the road, and that's going to be a nice bit of change.
I'd be a fool indeed, to upset this deal in order to try some off-shore business that I've heard nothing about until the other day. I know, I know. You're not trying recruit.
Do they send out a written prospectus (I think that's the word I'm looking for)? And is the corporate malfeasance law really a death penality? That might be a good law to have here.
In any event, until I see something a lot more substantial than what has been presented thus far, I must remain highly skeptical.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 06:52:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Beskeptigal:
The scam being used here is probably making the sponsors lots of money. And I doubt they are working hard. But the investors aren't going to make money.
Actually, the way a ponzi scam often works, some of the investors do make money. They get all excited, tell friends and are often used by the "company" for testimonials. Plus, it can go on for years, with a few happy customers. Those who are fairly early investors. Depending on the size of the "company" many people could make some money. But eventually it will implode. When the "company" sees that it isn't making money anymore, they will shut the doors and make off with their profits. Or, roll it over into a new company with new investors. The middle and bottom investors will get burned.
Another thing is investors have been forced to give the money back when the "company" has been busted for the scam. In this case, I guess they have their asses covered by taking it to the Internet and doing business over seas. Who knows what Malaysia considers legitimate?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 06:56:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus
Valiant Dancer- The main concerns of secrecy of holdings, the assessment of lincensure laws as compared to US licensure laws, and the history of governmental oversight in Malaysia continue to be issues. A number of posters who insist that it cannot be a scam and the owners are above reproach is illogical.
Lapcus- and that is the difference between Maylasian laws and US laws. I didnt say that this program is beyond reproach. But..when does a company stop being a "potential scam" and start be a creditable company. This company has been around for years. This 2% program has been around for over almost a year. I wonder do you still call Microsoft a scam?? How about volvo? I encountered people like you long before I came to this board. When i frist mention this program...those people yelled *SCAM* ...when i quite my job....they still yelled *SCAM*. And now 3 and a half months later. People are still hollering (not just you) *SCAM*. I mean people you act as if Im not making any money. If you had over $18,000 as a return on investment due to this program and someone came to you and said "it is a fake. you will lose all your money. It is a scam." Do you "honestly" think that you would go "ohh my...its a scam..what am i gonna do?"....will you?
Again, a 2% return on investment with low to no risk is not credible. The most I have ever seen a investment plan return (that is US licenced which requires full disclosure of holdings and performance which is independantly verifiable) is 30/40% annual return at high risk. You are claiming 2% per day, which, if you do the math comes to about 540% return (if all return is taken out per day) annual return. A gap of this magnitude is not logically possible. Microsoft actually produced a product which due to marketing strategy and business plans succeeded in a big way. Your investment alledgedly buys stocks (undisclosed), bonds (undisclosed), real estate (undisclosed), and contributes to charity (undisclosed and unprofitable).
quote:
Valiant Dancer- I already believe from the way "defenders" react to critism of their scam that it is likely a Ponzi scheme due to the secretive nature of the plan and the recruitment efforts. What am I supposed to "accept"?
Lapcus- from the way other "defenders" react?!?!?!...is that the kind of "evidence" you need to dub this a scam? And also this program does not need new people for it to keep going. Acutaly there was a post in the PIPS forum sugesting closing the doors to new members. I was all for that. As far as the secretive nature....from what you just said above I dont belive that there is anything no one can do to convice you that this is legit. Even if the CEO came and flew you to thier headquaters you still wouldnt be convinced.
The evidence I have seen which makes me say this is likely a Ponzi scheme (classified as a gifting enterprize under USC Title 18) are the following
1) The holdings of the company are kept secret
2) The rate of return is extremely high with low risk
3) The rate of money being made can be shown to outstrip the amount of currency available in the world very quickly
4) Posted critism of the plan attracts "defenders" which act like probable shills
5) Repeated requests to have the holdings of the plan posted to this message board have been ignored and those individuals request e-mail addresses to send single members the requested information (classic divide and conquer)
6) Buildings and fluff don't impress me. Any scam artist making boatloads of cash can afford fancy offices in poor second world contries. Show me the prospectus. Actual holdings which can be independantly verified
7) Malaysian licencure laws and the Malaysian record of corruption does not indicate the company is legitimate, it makes Malaysia a haven for scam artists, the other concerns listed indicate a Ponzi scheme
8) Most people discuss how their investments are held in accounts and they base their profit claims from it. Any internet scam artist can set up virtual accounts and put in virtual money.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- If you aren't trying to convince us that this isn't a scam, then why did you post?
Lapcus- ?!?!?!!? have you not read what was posted in the past...this is the 3rd time i will say this....i will qoute from a earlier post of mine. "earlier post from Lapcus- Honestly....you can join or not...it really doesnt effect me....(hint im not trying to recruit you). Someone posted this link in the PIPS forum..so i checked it out. Amazed at the amount of ignorance, I decided to post."
Ignorance? Not accepting unsubstantiated claims and "defenders" lack of source posting which address our questions is ignorance?
quote:
Dave W.- And to top it off, nobody here in public has asked for you to divulge the identities of anyone you've emailed. All they've asked for is the information you felt free to email out, but are reluctant to post for all to see.
Lapcus- ah! I was just anticipating you. I said earlier that i sent "someone" a buttload of info. I felt that someone was gonna say. "who is this person?...i need names, phone numbers, SS numbes and birth certificates before I believe anyone ask you for information...these people are not real....i dont believe you!!"
We don't care who you sent the info to, we want the info. Whether the people you sent this to are genuine or not, the fact that you sent this to someone else does not change the truth value of the information.
quote:
@tomic- See that? You just took on the job of defining words on your own and put Webster out of work.
Lapcus- what makes you happy @tomic ? Do you have a family? Friends? Loved ones? Have you ever sat at your job and longed to be with them? Longed to do things that you want to do instead of the 9-5 routine? Now picture what would you do if you didnt have to endure things that you dont want to in order to pay bills or survive?
This is one of the dreams of mine that is now a reality.
While @tomic has both freinds and family that he would like to spend more time with, you have not produced credible evidence that the investment scheme is genuine.
quote:
Lapcus- this could change things for banks...so i dont know if even "they" would want the masses to know about this. Why? Here is an example. At the bank that I bank with...i can get a loan of a $1000. The monthly payments would be around $50 a month. $1000 into PIPS would bring you about $19 a day. So in a weeks time you could pay what you owe for that month off and still have extra. In about 52 trading days you can pay the whole $1000 off. Now..think if EVERYBODY who banked with this bank did that? I could ca |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/15/2004 07:07:05 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 21:46:17 [Permalink]
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| My statement about seeing this scam before goes beyond Ponzi schemes. Frank ripoffs have similar characteristics. Foreign country, too good to be true claim, bank requires fee to release funds...That last one alone tells me it's a scam. I've traveled quite a bit. Banks function the same from country to country. That claim about the bank is just plain false. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 22:51:10 [Permalink]
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Well, first of all lapcus I want to thank you for reading my post with such care. I suspect you are perhaps the the only one to read it in its entirety.
I do however, concede myself guilty of the charge of unfairness. I believe you compared me to Michael Moore. I took that as a compliment. I had no intention of being "fair."
Why? Because your product is already inherently unfair. It is a scam, and of that I have no doubt. I can't prove it to your satisfaction, but I would bet my left nut that you aren't telling the whole truth. I have a nose for such people. The others here, in my opinion, have been rather generous with you. They think you merely tricked or deluded.
No. You are a liar. You benefit directly from this scam. You benefit from others falling for this scam. There is no other reason why you would defend this Ponzi sceme so vehemently, so passionately, if you didn't have a direct stake in the number of victims it generated. No, the lady doth protest too much. Your hands are filthy with dishonesty.
Let me ask you, since you are here and all. Do you feel any remorse at all for those you scam? Or is it survival of the fittest, and the losers be damned? I would just like to know how it is find yourself able to enjoy the blood money which you steal.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/16/2004 22:54:45 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 04:11:51 [Permalink]
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There are fees that my friend has paid for the money she's received. I don't know how much. There were Fed Ex charges to get the first check from Malaysia, then a charge to set up a 'PayPal' type account, then there was some charge because there was a problem, and the money had to go through some bank in Canada, so she didn't get every penny of the money that I've stated so far. How much, I don't know, but probably over $100 in fees.
She's expecting another check for over a grand. I think it's today. I'm hearing this all secondhand, so don't take my word for it, please. I'm not selling this idea at all, just relating what I've heard. I expect that if she is making this money then she's in one of the top tiers. I wonder how long it will last. Like I said before, they're talking about a five year plan. If so, they may be bringingin in a lot of people on the lower rungs, so if this Bryan Marsden is really greedy, it could last a while. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 07:51:11 [Permalink]
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Lapcus, I can see through what you're doing. I'm aware of a salesman's manipulations, and you're attempting several.
We've stated our objectives (intelligent, reasonable objections) and you've sought to overcome them, one by one.
You've tried to create doubt in the work-and-invest-legitimately credo that is widely recognized standard American wealth-building theory.
You have insulted us by saying you're "amazed at the amount of ignorance" you've found here--a manipulation tool to prompt people to defend themselves and therefore stay engaged in discussion.
You've tried the reverse psychology of "we don't want you to join anyway"--a childish way of creating elitism.
I could go on, but I'm bored with this topic. And I'm off to go shopping with my money, which surprisingly, is always available to me without a fee, in an American bank.
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dominickolas
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 13:55:46 [Permalink]
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Lapcus,
I really don't understand what you are doing here? There is no way to know for certain if PIPS is real without investing, and then pulling out your initial investment. Does this sound like something a skeptic (note the name of the forum here) would do? So no amount of words you say will change their minds. In all my research on pips, I have only found two kinds of people, people who say they've made money, and people who say it can't be true, but no one has ever said they lost money. And honestly do you think if people had lost money they wouldn't be complaining all over the internet?? Lapcus, I know you are defending yourself because it seems silly to you that otheres don't "believe", well again, will you look where you are posting?!?! All the best to you and all on this forum!
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Maybe I'm skeptical of you too! |
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