|
|
|
Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2004 : 11:26:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Ive heard "Greatest nation on Earth" or some form of it so many times I want to puke. At the age of 5 we begin 'Pledging our alligance to the USA' we learn all about how our forfathers freed us from tyranny and freed the slaves and^..^ Fast forward to 'A chicken in every pot and how we saved the world in both great wars and crushed the tyranny of the Soviets single handed. This is a short version of US history as tought in public schools. Private schools might add 'With the blessings of God' to the BS.
What about the forefathers who owned slaves, or the treatment of the native Americans? Surely that is mentioned too, if only briefly? Or do they conviniently just not mention it? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
 |
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 11:43:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Yeah, pretty much.
I would love to spend some time in Sweden. Did you know that the european adder (Vipera berus) in Sweden is the only serpent that actually thrives above the Artic Circle?
I did know it lived up north, but not much more than that. I even had to look up the name Vipera Berus... so apparently it is the "huggorm" in everyday Swedish. In 1st or 2nd grade I did see the skin of one such snake near the school, but that's about as close I've been to snakes in real life. But I didn't know it was the only one so far up north.
Anyway, Sweden is probably nice to visit, but I have no idea how others would actually like it and what they would think about it?
Btw, I would like to visit your country one day. To see New York, Cape Canaveral, the Library of Congress... many interesting things. Is it true that NORAD is open for tourists or was that just in WarGames?
Be sure to visit Boston also, God do I love Boston. As soon as I've made a little bit of money I'll probably head back for a visit of a few weeks or so. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 11:52:26 [Permalink]
|
Of course some of those things are briefed, if mentioned at all, but the overall idea is America the beautiful.
|
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 11:53:25 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Ive heard "Greatest nation on Earth" or some form of it so many times I want to puke. At the age of 5 we begin 'Pledging our alligance to the USA' we learn all about how our forfathers freed us from tyranny and freed the slaves and^..^ Fast forward to 'A chicken in every pot and how we saved the world in both great wars and crushed the tyranny of the Soviets single handed. This is a short version of US history as tought in public schools. Private schools might add 'With the blessings of God' to the BS.
What about the forefathers who owned slaves, or the treatment of the native Americans? Surely that is mentioned too, if only briefly? Or do they conviniently just not mention it?
Mostly, if they can't coat the ugly with a veneer of pretty, they bury it and hope no one else has a shovel. But in all fairness, that is a common enough, human trait not exclusive to the US.
V. berus further has the distinction of being the most widely distributed of snakes. It is a fascinating animal.
REMINDER: Tomorrow night there will be rasslin' match, best two out of three falls, 90 minute time limit, between "Dick the Groundhog" Cheney and "Pretty Boy Floyd" John Edwards.
It ought to be a considerably better contested match than the last one, as Cheney at least has some smarts if few ethics. And here in NC, Edwards is known to be not only smart, but a scrapper.
Tune in to your favorite-or-least-loathed Media Brothel at 9:00 PM.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 10/04/2004 11:55:27 |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 12:16:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Yeah, pretty much.
I would love to spend some time in Sweden. Did you know that the european adder (Vipera berus) in Sweden is the only serpent that actually thrives above the Artic Circle?
I did know it lived up north, but not much more than that. I even had to look up the name Vipera Berus... so apparently it is the "huggorm" in everyday Swedish. In 1st or 2nd grade I did see the skin of one such snake near the school, but that's about as close I've been to snakes in real life. But I didn't know it was the only one so far up north.
Anyway, Sweden is probably nice to visit, but I have no idea how others would actually like it and what they would think about it?
Btw, I would like to visit your country one day. To see New York, Cape Canaveral, the Library of Congress... many interesting things. Is it true that NORAD is open for tourists or was that just in WarGames?
NORAD was open to tours after an extensive background check. They discontinued the practice in 1999-2000. They still have invitation only NORAD tours going on. However they do mention a video presentation on site in a visitor's center.
http://www.northcom.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=s.contact |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 12:38:06 [Permalink]
|
Or you could take the Wargames the movie set tour!
Wood...ewe...lik...to...plaa...a...gaym? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 13:36:04 [Permalink]
|
Even before the debate, GOP spinners were working to limit any damage Bush might do by telling America that the president would have to be up past his bedtime! They said he might be tired, so he'd probably take a nap in the afternoon, before the debate.
Also, I heard on Al Franken's show that Bush was wearing an earpiece, so that he could be coached from backstage(perhaps by Cheney?). At one point, said Franken, he told someone, not on the stage, to "Let me finish!"
So even with a sideline coach he still couldn't do any better that he did? |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 13:54:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
Even before the debate, GOP spinners were working to limit any damage Bush might do by telling America that the president would have to be up past his bedtime! They said he might be tired, so he'd probably take a nap in the afternoon, before the debate.
Also, I heard on Al Franken's show that Bush was wearing an earpiece, so that he could be coached from backstage(perhaps by Cheney?). At one point, said Franken, he told someone, not on the stage, to "Let me finish!"
So even with a sideline coach he still couldn't do any better that he did?
I don't buy the earpiece, not without more substansive evidence. But it seems he did have a sheet on paper of his podium in violation of the debate rules. Americablog has an article on it with photos. Scroll down a bit.
http://www.americablog.org/
Of course, who knows what if anything was on the paper. As for the "let me finish" remark, coming from Bush, it might mean anything. Nerves from the proximity of Kerry and fearing an interuption, perhaps.
Tempest in a teapot, methinks, considering the outcome. I would like to see a firm wrist-slap by a 300 pound nun for the paper, though.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 15:29:33 [Permalink]
|
quote:
posted by Maverick
In 1st or 2nd grade I did see the skin of one such snake near the school, but that's about as close I've been to snakes in real life. But I didn't know it was the only one so far up north.
Ha! I've had more contact than you! I've actually seen a live jiboia (if it has an english name, it fails me). I wanted to touch it, but daddy didn't let me... -mumble-
quote:
posted by filthy
Mostly, if they can't coat the ugly with a veneer of pretty, they bury it and hope no one else has a shovel. But in all fairness, that is a common enough, human trait not exclusive to the US.
Just a paranthesis from someone in an actual under-developed country: that is not so here. We're exposed to the Raw and Naked Truth from the beginning (or at least, I was; so were my friends). Sure, there is some of poetic justice for the good emperor and the princess who set the slaves free (a country's got to have heroes) but we're fully conscient of how our indians were massacred (though to a lesser extent than in the rest of S. America, for the sole reason ours were docile), slaves abused, our country explored. We know our gold resources are sitting in Portugal and that our -coughsnort- 'forefathers' -coughsnort- came with the sole intent of sucking us dry. We're not nearly as patriotic as developed countries. We know our politicians/politics SUCK BEYOND SALVATION. At least, that's how it is in Brazil. Sadly, this made us grow indifferent to the ugly stuff happening indoors. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 16:56:35 [Permalink]
|
True enough, Siberia. But how do the 'upper classes' view it? And if roles were reversed......?
I will try to look up your snake. I probably know it by another, common name and almost certainly by the Latin.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 17:11:47 [Permalink]
|
Ok, got it, I think. It's one of the boas and a well known one: the red-tailed boa (Boa c. constrictor). Had to hit several sites to translate. Here's a little text and a pic of a small juvenile:
http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/constrictor/constrictor.htm
Caution must be used in IDing these animals due to often abberent patterns and colors. Also, those not familiar with snakes get it wrong most of the time.
But if indeed this is the boa -- there are several species native to Brazil -- it makes a docil and easily kept captive. It reaches a length of some 14 feet.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 17:55:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
True enough, Siberia. But how do the 'upper classes' view it? And if roles were reversed......?
Good question. I'm the 'middle class' type, with the rest of my family pending to poverty (and some to misery). I don't think the upper classes have any better view; they enjoy spending their summer vacations at US, Europe and wherever, or wasting money with pretty expensive clothes. They most likely know it's messed up but don't care. Y'know, people complaining about how fucked up the country is but don't move a finger. Either that, or join the political ranks and do nothing to change it (or if they try, fall unheard). Not all, of course - there are a quite good lot of activists.
I think if we suddenly went first-world country, we'd probably fall into the God-bless-country-XYZ category, though. Like you said, it's human nature. In fact, we've a national pride - if not how damn good we are, the fact we've some of truly amazing landscapes. Natural beauties and riches are immense - if anything, it's one hell of a pretty country.
quote:
Ok, got it, I think. It's one of the boas and a well known one: the red-tailed boa (Boa c. constrictor). Had to hit several sites to translate. Here's a little text and a pic of a small juvenile:
http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/constrictor/constrictor.htm
Caution must be used in IDing these animals due to often abberent patterns and colors. Also, those not familiar with snakes get it wrong most of the time.
But if indeed this is the boa -- there are several species native to Brazil -- it makes a docil and easily kept captive. It reaches a length of some 14 feet.
Yep! I think that's the one. It was calmly perched around her owner's neck. Boa... yeah, I knew that name, just didn't click with the correct snake. Silly me. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 09:33:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthyMostly, if they can't coat the ugly with a veneer of pretty, they bury it and hope no one else has a shovel. But in all fairness, that is a common enough, human trait not exclusive to the US.
I'm not trying to say that other countries are perfect when it comes to history teaching. For example I've never heard about how Sweden and Portugal were both involved in slavetrading in Africa. We do learn about the kings and queens and their wars with pretty much any country in close enough proximity (and some of those countries fought wars against us), so it's not entirely all sugarcoated I suppose. Also, I'm not sure I've ever got to hear everything about how we let the German soldiers travel through our country during WW2, etc. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 10:03:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Originally posted by filthyMostly, if they can't coat the ugly with a veneer of pretty, they bury it and hope no one else has a shovel. But in all fairness, that is a common enough, human trait not exclusive to the US.
I'm not trying to say that other countries are perfect when it comes to history teaching. For example I've never heard about how Sweden and Portugal were both involved in slavetrading in Africa. We do learn about the kings and queens and their wars with pretty much any country in close enough proximity (and some of those countries fought wars against us), so it's not entirely all sugarcoated I suppose. Also, I'm not sure I've ever got to hear everything about how we let the German soldiers travel through our country during WW2, etc.
Sweden wanted to keep their neutrality and sovreignity. Since they were surrounded, they really didn't have much choice in the matter about German troop movements. One of those "we want to do this, you can either agree to it, or... gee nice country you have here. Be a shame if anything should happen to it." sort of deals.
At the time that Portugal and Sweden were involved in slave trading (Sweden discontinued the practice in 1813 followed by Portugal north of the equator in 1819.), it was a common practice by several countries to gain income by exploiting a percieved inferior people. This was just the way European countries viewed African natives. The Portuguese and Swedish colonies didn't abolish slavery until later (1858 and 1843 respectively.). I find it normal for countries not to report heavily on a practice that was abolished so long ago when discussing their history. The US talks about it extensively because it was one of the factors in a civil war.
Nations rarely teach history of events that they weren't particularly proud of. Mostly, they acknowledge recent past events, but leave out distant past events. Has to do with national pride, usually. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/05/2004 10:05:46 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 10:25:17 [Permalink]
|
Another reminder: Edwards & Cheney on the jawbone at 9 EST.
Here's the Rude Pundit's pre-debate take on it:
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
Damn straight!
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
