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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 09/30/2004 : 22:44:59
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Ok, this is a crossposting, but I thought maybe we could continue here instead of the SkepticTimes-thread...
So here it goes:
I'm a former role-player, though I did it "the old-fasioned" way: AD&D, Warhammer FRPG. Some Call of Cthulu, Harn, StarWars, Cyber Punk.
I also enjoyed the computergames, it started with Eye of the Beholder I & II, Baldur's Gate and such, but also Warcraft and Starcraft. Not much online gaming though, except Mechwarrior3.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 23:18:38 [Permalink]
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Good idea, I was starting to feel guilty about getting off topic in the last thread (hijacking). So ok, here is my last post from the old thread as well:
Ah, I see none of us were ever suckered into trying Star Wars Galaxies. I've never heard anyone came away from that game with positive feedback. Ever. I never got into Everquest, and from what I've heard of that I'm glad. Guess I'm not "hard core" enough to want to spend that amount of time grinding levels in a game.
World of Warcraft looks to be perfect, though. We should start a SFN guild if enough people are going to be playing. Our motto can be, "We cast magic, we just don't believe in it." 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/01/2004 01:06:13 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 01:41:32 [Permalink]
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Ahhh..
The good old days of Cthulhu, MERP, WH-FRPG, Torg, Vampire...
Been a while since I had time for that. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 05:05:38 [Permalink]
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Dear god, save yourselves from on-line roleplaying games. I played Everquest for three years and it took my computer breaking for me to quit. I even had in game friends Id never met willing to buy me a new motherboard/processor just so I would come back...I refused. They then offered to pay for my account indefinetly till I changed my mind...
Anyway even though it ruled my life their were plenty of folks who played waay more than me. things like 400+full days playing time. Worst part is the game itself sucked, had some neat features but it would have totally bombed as a single player game. Their were plently of folkes who made money of the game including one guy turned millionaire, as he hired out some chinese at 10$/hr to exploit a money making bug, he would then go on ebay and sell in game cash for real cash...
/Vent off
I still play D&D as much as possible, (old school) the new version was designed to make programming video games eaiser and ruined the game IMO. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 07:38:15 [Permalink]
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Ah, Vampire. I used to play Vampire with my college friends... but they aren't there anymore -pout-
I'm the newschool -grin- I'm used to play-by-post, forum games. I didn't even know there was such thing as World of Warcraft - I played the software version of it to exhaustion, though (the first and second ones... they were borrowed, my computer's ancient and can't hold most of modern technology). Starcraft didn't really tickle my fancy. I loved Heroes of Might and Magic, too. It was absolutely amazing. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 08:25:53 [Permalink]
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As moderator here, I would not be adverse to a play-by-post game of some sort right here in General Discussion, so long as a few simple meta-rules get followed:- There will be only one "official" game master (GM) at any time, who will be clearly designated in each post,
- rules disputes and other such trivia will be handled through Private Messaging,
- disputes over who should be GM will be handled by me, through Private Messaging,
- new players will be welcomed at almost any time, and the GM will work them in as quickly as possible,
- each game will stick to a single thread, until such a time that I (or another moderator) decide to open a continuation thread, and close the previous,
- SFN staff can choose to terminate any game at any time, and
- these meta-rules can be ammended, modified or eliminated at any time, without warning.
Unfortunately, right now I won't have time to participate in any game which might start.
By the way, I think that a game using a combination of play-by-post and play-by-chat might offer some interesting possibilities. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 09:12:43 [Permalink]
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| For those who dont know what they are talking about heres a link to some chat based D&D 'Open RPG' http://www.planetadnd.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=43&21383 read through some of them and you'll get the idea. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2004 : 08:12:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
For those who dont know what they are talking about heres a link to some chat based D&D 'Open RPG' http://www.planetadnd.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=43&21383 read through some of them and you'll get the idea.
I'm curious and somewhat interested, though I have no idea how this works. When I went to your link, BPS, I couldn't seem to find a thread where actualy gaming was taking place. There was lots of "here's my character" and "I want to start a game-- who's in?" but little that showed how it worked.
What sort of game would we start here? I'm very familiar with AD&D 2ed Forgotten Realms, plus Star Frontiers, Marvel SH and a few others, but that's it... |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2004 : 15:06:12 [Permalink]
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Ok, here's a little (and childish and complex) rpg as an example. It's not mine, but I played there as Siberia -bows- and Lyra.
http://www.twilight-ataraxis.com/ |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 21:39:55 [Permalink]
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| Dungeons and Dragons turns 30 on October 16th. I heard about this on NPR tonight, actually. They interviewed Gygax, who said they'd originally expected to sell perhaps 50,000 copies of the original rule books, only to hardcore gamers. Less than 10 years later, there were eight million people playing D&D worldwide. They "underestimated a little bit." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 22:22:35 [Permalink]
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I must admit I've never played a "pen and paper" RPG, nor participated in one of those thread-based games. They seemed more like improve acting sketches and collaborative writing exercises, respectively. Just not my cup of Joe.
Don't get me wrong. I love computer game RPGs, and I do realize the core of the game (chance to hit, stats, etc.) has its origins in the dice rolls of the table top versions. But I dunno, it's different. You really don't have to role play in most RPGs anymore. I mean, I like playing fantasy-themed games, but I have to no desire to pretend I am a character in those kinds of games. It's a fine line. I guess I would say it's the difference between being a fan of the Star Wars movies and showing up to a premiere dressed as Han Solo.
That's not knock anyone who does like them, of course. It's just to say being a fan of one type of game doesn't necessarily equate to being a fan of the other, so I understand why some of the old schoolers wouldn't like the new computer versions.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/15/2004 22:29:19 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 23:42:00 [Permalink]
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H. Humbert wrote:quote:
But I dunno, it's different. You really don't have to role play in most RPGs anymore. I mean, I like playing fantasy-themed games, but I have to no desire to pretend I am a character in those kinds of games. It's a fine line.
I think the fine line is actually drawn in a different place than you think it is.
Modern, computer RPGs still demand that you pretend that you are the character(s) in the game, or at least that you control their actions. The real difference is that computer RPGs require the players to imagine less of the game itself. I mean, the scenes are painted across the screen, in minute detail in some cases. Part of the fun puzzle-solving aspect of the paper-and-pencil games is figuring out just what the hell the game master is describing, without resorting to asking him/her to draw you a diagram.
And there's also less interaction to be had with computer RPGs, since the computer can't be programmed to think up interesting and/or amusing results of actions the player wants to take which are off the wall. In other words, the computer RPG has an extremely limited set of commands it'll respond to in any given situation, and anything outside that set either isn't offered, or results in an error message of some sort. A human game master can take a wacky request ("I'd like to eat the troll, please") and - yes - improvise an appropriate result ("Well, since he's still alive and unhurt, he grabs you by the neck and slams a fist into your face... who's next?").
As I think I mentioned in another thread, I was in a D&D game once where the DM had created a world in which gods would become real if enough people believed in them. Once we, the players, figured this out, we'd think up the most stupid and ineffectual god-like beings we could, have our characters go into town and convert the townsfolk into believing in these idiotic deities. POOF! The god would come into being. This went on for a while until we created a god which, due to our vague descriptions to the villagers, decided that the thing it wanted most out of existence was to torment us. One of our characters, who had little self-control in what he said to this annoying little god, soon wound up wearing plate armor which glowed brightly green, constantly. He found it impossible to remove. So much for stealth in dark dungeons.
In another game, the only magical weapon any of our party had for several months was a +1 spatula. Of course, the DM regularly decided to send monsters at us which were immune to non-magical weapons, and we had to figure out that the way to defeat them was basically to have the whole party jump on them, hold them down and then try to saw into them with the edge of the spatula or something similarly brutish.
I could go on, but the point is: could these sorts of things be programmed into computer RPGs? Perhaps, but for every innovative idea, you're going often going to be paying another umpty-ump dollars for another CD, or another online membership. With D&D (for example), we only actually needed the one set of books and a few dice, and we could have nearly-endless (and endlessly various) adventures.
Obviously, the paper-and-pencil games have their drawbacks, too. For one thing, you've got to know people willing to play. The rules, because of the open-ended nature of the games, are "exposed" (you have to know many of them) rather than having the calculations and dice-rolls hidden away in the code (this can also lead to disagreements over the rules between player and GM, which can at times be brutal, with many hurt feelings). They tend to be slower than computer RPGs, with even simple fights taking minutes instead of seconds.
I like both, for different reasons. I've run D&D games, and I've written computer RPGs. I played lots of D&D back in the day, and I'm currently working my way through Disney's "Kingdom Hearts" (on PS2) with my three-year-old. One of these days, I'm going to finish writing my MUD system, which - on paper - really kicks ass, even though it's entirely text.
By the way, 20 years ago, there was about an even chance that any player I encountered would "identify with" their character while playing. I mean, they would say to the GM, "I will draw my sword and attack the orc," as opposed to saying, "Elsbeth will reach into her pouch and throw pixie dust at the blob." Personally, I was one of the former, but I never had any desire to dress up as one of my D&D characters.
Except for the fact that I had a brief flirtation with medieval recreationism. But I was into that for the actual fighting, even if it was with padded weapons. Dressing the part was secondary, but I did make a hobby of making armor with real metal plate (22-guage auto body steel, at least doubled) and wire for a while. But this was all separate from the RPG games, except I learned just how much the armor weighs when worn. Both GMs and computer games tend to be extremely forgiving in this regard, allowing people wearing 50+ pounds of protection to turn cartwheels and whatnot.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while there are extremists for every endeavor (for D&D, see Patton Oswald's "Reno 911" appearance, or the fat guy's bit in the movie Ring of Steel; for programming, see Charles Petzold's "Microsoft Approved" tattoo), just playing the paper-and-pencil games won't automatically make you one of those extremists. If a game ever gets off the ground here, you might want to give it a chance. You won't find yourself compelled to wear Gandalf robes, I promise. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr Pepper
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 01:53:12 [Permalink]
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| Any chance we could get the game in email in addition to on the site? |
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Dr Pepper
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 10:51:17 [Permalink]
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Thanks for that lengthy description, Dave. As I said, I never actually played D&D, but for some reason I always had the impression that there was far more role playing involved. You make a fair point about imagination and the limits of computer game options, and you describe role playing as merely one aspect of an individual's choice, which is exactly how it still is in computer games.
As to your point that the game "demands" that you pretend that you are the character(s), that's somewhat untrue. It demands that you control a character's actions, but there's no mandate to pretend you are that character, just as a shooting game doesn't mandate that you pretend you actually are a super-buffed space marine. For instance I rarely "get into character" beyond setting the appearance and name, yet I've seen people write whole background stories--truly involved biographies--for each character they play. Some refuse to break character in chat, and actually can become quite upset if you ruin their "immersion." It really is a dividing point in the RPG community, and many games (especially the online ones) now offer a pure role-playing server for those who enjoy it. Yes, they type in old English and get super-pissed if you bring up the real world. Personally, I'd just as soon chat about the Yankees game while I hack up an ogre.
How's Kingdom Hearts, BTW? I've actually heard good things about that game, though it does look like its geared for a slightly younger audience.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/16/2004 11:00:38 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 01:40:36 [Permalink]
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H. Humbert wrote:quote:
You make a fair point about imagination and the limits of computer game options, and you describe role playing as merely one aspect of an individual's choice, which is exactly how it still is in computer games.
Thanks. But...quote:
As to your point that the game "demands" that you pretend that you are the character(s), that's somewhat untrue. It demands that you control a character's actions...
As I wrote, above:Modern, computer RPGs still demand that you pretend that you are the character(s) in the game, or at least that you control their actions. Emphasis added this time around. Obviously, starting a debate on the merits of different gaming systems is not what I really want to do in a thread which I would really enjoy seeing start an SFN RPG of some sort, but what am I to do?  quote:
..but there's no mandate to pretend you are that character, just as a shooting game doesn't mandate that you pretend you actually are a super-buffed space marine. For instance I rarely "get into character" beyond setting the appearance and name, yet I've seen people write whole background stories--truly involved biographies--for each character they play. Some refuse to break character in chat, and actually can become quite upset if you ruin their "immersion." It really is a dividing point in the RPG community, and many games (especially the online ones) now offer a pure role-playing server for those who enjoy it. Yes, they type in old English and get super-pissed if you bring up the real world. Personally, I'd just as soon chat about the Yankees game while I hack up an ogre.
Again, as I wrote in my prior post, there are extremists in every sort of endeavor. 99.9% of those who enjoyed writing code for Windows 3.1 wouldn't go out and get themselves a actually freakin' tattoo which reads "Microsoft Approved" with the little MS four-color flag, but Charles Petwold did just that. In a recent episode fo Penn & Teller's Bullshit!, they showed a couple who were pretending to be vampires, complete with "fangs," and even drinking each other's blood.
I agree that taking a game (or an operating system, or a romantic sillyness) so far is completely unnecessary for most people, but I also think you'll find that in the vast majority of "soft RPGs" (mostly first-person shooters), the walkthroughs and other hints say things like, "now go through the door, turn right, and then you can use the Key fo Atlan in the lockbox," as if these directions were something you would be doing, personally. At the "least role-playing" level, such instructions would obviously read "now command your character to go through the door and turn right, at which point you should make your character activate the Key of Atlan object to open the lockbox on the screen."
As should be obvious, any game started here on the SFN message boards is probably going to be somewhere in between the extremes. Too little role-playing is just boring, while too much (a separate sever for full immersion) is going to be impossible to deal with.quote:
How's Kingdom Hearts, BTW? I've actually heard good things about that game, though it does look like its geared for a slightly younger audience.
Heck, I have been weirded out by some of the bits in the game. It is, more or less, Final Fantasy meets Disney meets spooky shadow-world. I've demolished the Red Queen's army of playing cards, helped Tarzan save the gorillas, and killed Cerberus while Hercules was busy running. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 19:20:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
As to your point that the game "demands" that you pretend that you are the character(s), that's somewhat untrue. It demands that you control a character's actions, but there's no mandate to pretend you are that character,
Ah, but that's the hole point of the role-playing game. You role-play as opposed to merely play.
quote:
For instance I rarely "get into character" beyond setting the appearance and name, yet I've seen people write whole background stories--truly involved biographies--for each character they play.
Knowing your character's history helps you understand your character's motivations and quirks, and thus make it easier to maintain the same characteristics. Besides, it also make good role-play sessions when a character can sit by the campfire telling stories from his youth, surprising his companions with something new they didn't know.
Like when some friends were travelling the Orient Express in 1923 (Call of Cthulu campaign), and while staying at a hotel in Zagreb, the concierge comes up to the dinner table and asks my character, Paulo Rosco if he'd like to play the piano for them. None of the other gamers except the Game Master knew Paulo Rosco was a hobby concert pianist with a skill level of 89%. The impromptu concert was a complete success, and the party could stay at the hotel for free. It wouldn't have mattered though, since Paulo could have bought the hotel if he wanted to, no one else new was that the reason he started adventuring was that he had just inherited more than a million dollar.
The effect of personal traits developed from a specially made up history (and yes, there is actually a character-history building book) can cause interesting scenarios where the balance of a conflict is tipped against the gamers favour:
For instance, my Harn-Master character, the wizard William had a traumatic event in his childhood involving a child-molesting burglar and a house fire. As a result, William acquired pyromaniac tendencies. Gifted in magic, he pursued a career of wizardry in the fire-sign.
One evening out on the road his companions made the mistake of asking William to make the camp-fire without considering what could happen...
He had been trying to learn how to throw a fire-ball, and though he'd failed up to this point, he was making progress. Neither William nor his companion actually believed he would get it right this time, as he had the crazy idea to light the camp fire with a fire-ball instead of working up a sweat with the flint-and-steel. Imagine everyone's surprise when it worked, the sound of the explosion as the fire-ball sent burning logs out into the woods in every direction into the surrounding forest. The whole party spent the rest of the night putting out small fires, trying to prevent a major forest fire.
Deprived of sleep that night, the party got penalties to all their skills the following day as a result of fatigue. A fight that was originally meant by the Game-Master to me a skirmish, and a walk in the park, got dangerous and the party barely got away without serious injury.
quote:
Some refuse to break character in chat, and actually can become quite upset if you ruin their "immersion."
If one likes to chat real-life mundane stuff, IRC-channels seems like a better place. The whole point of a role-playing game is to role-play, but as Dave pointed out, one needs to have some balance.
quote:
It really is a dividing point in the RPG community, and many games (especially the online ones) now offer a pure role-playing server for those who enjoy it. Yes, they type in old English and get super-pissed if you bring up the real world. Personally, I'd just as soon chat about the Yankees game while I hack up an ogre.
Typing in Old English is a bit over the top, I think. But if you are playing a (martial arts trained) monk, you shouldn't say "when I got to that bitching sailor, I really fucked him up..." but rather "I tried to reason with the sailor, but he became physically abusive and I was forced to subdue him."
quote:
How's Kingdom Hearts, BTW? I've actually heard good things about that game, though it does look like its geared for a slightly younger audience.
I don't know, I haven't heard about it.
When I played text-only MUD, I played NannyMUD at Lysator, in Sweden.
http://www.lysator.liu.se/nanny/
It's played through telnet. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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