|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2004 : 06:54:29 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Evolution is not fact, or we wouldn't be sitting here arguing about it.
Isn't that a non-seqiteur?
We are not arguing for Evolution because is isn't a fact.
We are arguing for Evolution because you are too thickheaded to understand that is really is a fact.
quote:
If you could prove it completly you all would be waving it in the face of every bible believing human on this planet.
We are trying to, but you have already decided to reject it, no matter what evidence we put forth.
You don't understand the concept of scientific theory, and this is really the bottom line. As long as you don't understand it you will regard is as a huge monster to combat, without realising that it can be your friend, and without realising that science and God is not mutually exclusive. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
 |
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 07:25:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Evolution is not fact, or we wouldn't be sitting here arguing about it. If you could prove it completly you all would be waving it in the face of every bible believing human on this planet.
Evolution is fact, you just choose to deny it's existance in the face of significant evidence. You could say the same thing about your breakfast cereal. The fact that you disbelieve evolution has no bearing on the truth value of evolution (the process, not the mechanism for change).
Your absurd notion that "we" would be waving it in the face of every Bible-believing human on the planet indicates that you believe
1) Evolution accepters are egotistical
2) Evolution refutes the Bible
Both assumptions are wrong.
The Bible makes no mention of mechanism for change nor is it specific about how the first humans came to be. It merely says that God created it without getting detailed in the mechanism by which the creation happened.
Evolution says that species change over time to adapt to their surroundings. (Think Nylon bug) It makes no mention or comment on any divine forces which are immeasurable. Therefore, it cannot be used to refute the Bible. It is used to refute the unBiblical dogma of Young Earth Creationism.
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 08:39:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The reality is, things are as they are in this world. Science attempts to explain them to suit science. Things it cannot answer are left alone, because in reality, things are as they are in this world!
Gravity happens. Gravity is. Yet we study it, we calculate it, we estimate it. We do great things with it. Yet, you don't see people saying gravity doesn't exist. It is a fact.
Electricity happens. Electricity is. Should we not study electricity, just because it is as it is? Should we not question what causes it? For a long time, we couldn't explain lightnings. Now we can. And because we know what electricity is, we have the world as we have it.
Yes, things are as they are. Evolution happens. Evolution is.
Things are what they are. We try to understand it - simply that. We try to explain things, yes, but not because we're rebelling against something. We try to explain things because curiosity and wonder are part of that great mind we have and that you, admittedly, confess is the most amazing feature in the human organism. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 19:52:58 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Evolution is not fact, or we wouldn't be sitting here arguing about it. If you could prove it completly you all would be waving it in the face of every bible believing human on this planet.
And yet again, I state that science is not in the business of proving anything. Science does no more than make observations, collecting evidence to form hypotisis and ultimatly, theories. By the time an hypotisis becomes a theory, it is so well supported that it might just as well be a fact.
I've got a question: what's the big deal with immortality? Why is it so important? Seems to me, the afterlife would get pretty dull after the first millina, or so.
Edited for 5:00 AM punctuation.
Well in a universe as big as this one, being allowed to be with your maker forever, that would not get boring. Since Gods knowledge is unlimited, we could know everything and not as much as God! Sounds like alot of fun to me, surrounded by your friends, angels and God himself. I'm game, I would like to be there with them. I don't think God would take you to a place you wouldn't be happy in. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
|
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 20:33:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Since Gods knowledge is unlimited, we could know everything and not as much as God!
Either we get to know everything or we don't, but you can't know eveything and still not know everything.
See, this is one of those little logical inconsistancies that you keep espousing, Velch. Why can't you just accept that both the bible and evolution are literal truths? Sure that's contradictory, but you seem to show no sign of being troubled by such things. Why do you keep fighting evolution? Just accept it into your heart right alongside god and the bible. Cram it in there, I'm sure it will fit.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/18/2004 20:35:27 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 20:59:00 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Since Gods knowledge is unlimited, we could know everything and not as much as God!
Didn't I tell you to lay off that comtaminated pond water?
quote:
[i]posted by H. Humbert:[i/]Why can't you just accept that both the bible and evolution are literal truths?
You're just poking fun at verlch, I hope?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 21:07:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
You're just poking fun at verlch, I hope?
Yes. Try as I might, I cannot entertain two conflicting viewpoints simultaneously. I only suggest it to Verlch as he seems able to pull it off quite effectively, and it would resolve this particular conflict for him. Seems easier than trying to convince him of dropping the "bible as literal fact" notion altogether.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
|
|
|
verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 21:23:48 [Permalink]
|
Yes, things are as they are. Evolution happens. Evolution is.
What something we have never observed! So let me get this straight, there are 6 billion humans on the face of the earth? 99% have no disfigurment? Everything the same, and you think this came from chance? Eyes, ears, throat, toungue all in the same uniform spots! Humans also come from microscopic times and spaces, all in an effort to become a full grown human! Nothing short of a miracle. Evolution doesn't explain why we die, the bible does. Evolution can't explain why we wear clothing, the big B can. Evolution can't explain marriage, the bible can! Evolution can explain why animals fear us, the bible says its because of sin, not fear of hunting.
The bible says God knows the amount of hairs on your head. So far the bible bats 100%. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
|
|
|
|
NGR
New Member
Australia
9 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 21:32:12 [Permalink]
|
quote:
The bible says God knows the amount of hairs on your head. So far the bible bats 100%.
How many does it say I have? It should be noted that I don't seem to have as many now as I did a few years ago. Does it take that into account? |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 22:01:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Yes, things are as they are. Evolution happens. Evolution is.
Indeed. You finally got it right.
quote:
What something we have never observed!
Again, you got it wrong. But that won't change your mind, would it? I mean, since you know you simply can't be wrong, evolution does not happen, just because you said so.
quote:
So let me get this straight, there are 6 billion humans on the face of the earth? 99% have no disfigurment? Everything the same, and you think this came from chance? Eyes, ears, throat, toungue all in the same uniform spots!
Most certainly not. One of my ears is slightly higher than the other. I noticed that Shannen Doherty's one eye defiantly is higher than the other. In fact her face look rather twisted to me. I don't have the same skin colour as Bill Cosby, but I do have very similar colour to Michael Jackson, but for completely different reasons. These are not uniform characteristics. Besides, evolution work on a longer perspective, we should not observe more than minor morphological differences. (There we go again with words that is probably beyond your understanding)
What we do observe is differences in culture evolving. Biblical literalists is becoming more and more distant to theistic evolutionists. Soon they will not be able to coexist/interbreed with eachother. Eventually, their species will die out. With a bang, if GWB stays president.
quote:
Evolution doesn't explain why we die,
Ordinary biology does, evolution does not have to.quote:
Evolution can't explain why we wear clothing
I can explain, evolution does not have to.
quote:
Evolution can't explain marriage
Anthropology can, Evolution does not have to.quote:
Evolution can explain why animals fear us
Indeed it can, you got at least one right.
quote:
the bible says its because of sin, not fear of hunting.
I think the Bible is full of shit, so I don't expect it to get it right. Most parts of it was written during the end of the bronze-age, wasn't it?
quote:
The bible says God knows the amount of hairs on your head.
If God did know the amount of hairs on my head, why isn't it written in the Bible? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 00:48:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
[quote]Evolution doesn't explain why we die,
Ordinary biology does, evolution does not have to.
Death is an attribute of life.
Members of some species die of age. This makes room for more offspring and increases diversity. Species that die will have an advantage adapting to an environment.
You die to make way for your children. You live on in them.
Some members of this species are so scared of death that they cling to absurd fantasies of eternal life for comfort.
Interesting to see the verlch-bot mix statements that are actually are true with the usual fantasies and PRATT stupidity. New software? Who runs that thing?
|
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 02:59:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Well in a universe as big as this one, being allowed to be with your maker forever, that would not get boring. Since Gods knowledge is unlimited, we could know everything and not as much as God! Sounds like alot of fun to me, surrounded by your friends, angels and God himself. I'm game, I would like to be there with them. I don't think God would take you to a place you wouldn't be happy in.
Forever, verlch? That's a long time. You'd have to be all but brain dead to enjoy something forever.
Perhaps that's it. Heaven, or wherever, is filled with happy zombies all praising a deity that is such a wuss that it needs that sort of thing. Me, I'd druther be dead.
Which brings up yet another question: what exactly was this deity doing before it created the universe and solved it's insecurity problem?
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 04:13:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Yes, things are as they are. Evolution happens. Evolution is.
Indeed. You finally got it right.
Umm, actually, he was quoting me 
|
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 06:26:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Yes, things are as they are. Evolution happens. Evolution is.
What something we have never observed! So let me get this straight, there are 6 billion humans on the face of the earth? 99% have no disfigurment? Everything the same, and you think this came from chance? Eyes, ears, throat, toungue all in the same uniform spots! Humans also come from microscopic times and spaces, all in an effort to become a full grown human! Nothing short of a miracle. Evolution doesn't explain why we die, the bible does. Evolution can't explain why we wear clothing, the big B can. Evolution can't explain marriage, the bible can! Evolution can explain why animals fear us, the bible says its because of sin, not fear of hunting.
The bible says God knows the amount of hairs on your head. So far the bible bats 100%.
And you've verified this with God......how?
Sorry, this doesn't follow. You keep posting like you know the mind of God. Hope you like flames, verlch.
Job 13:7
Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 06:29:17 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Evolution can explain why animals fear us, the bible says its because of sin, not fear of hunting.
What about Antartica or the Galapagos Island.
Penguins do not fear humans - this is a land without sin. Are you saying penguins are without sin or when humans are in Antartica they are without sin? Stupid evolution would say that the penguins don't have fear because there aren't any land preditors.
Same with the Galapagos islands you can walk up to the animals on the island and touch them they have no fear of people.
Now that is ironic - the land where Darwin formed his idea of evolution is also a land where people (and all animals I guess) have no sin. If you die on the Galapagos islands do you get a free pass to heaven?? You must since you are without sin.
Keep it coming verlich - I love this guy!!
|
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
