|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2004 : 07:24:31
|
I think I can guess what most of you think. I personally believe it was a catastrophic error, and not just because Iraq was absolutely no threat to the US. But also because the goals we originally set were unachievable from the start. And geo-politically, it has been a disaster for the whole concept and practice of international cooperation.
Anyway, I'd love to hear a well reasoned argument that the war was a good idea. I don't believe there is one, but I'm always open to fresh points of view.
I guess the biggest problem we face now is that abandoning Iraq is at least as bad an idea as invading was. That is, we're stuck with Bush's war and we need to, in some manner, win it. Do you think the Bush Administration would accept a leader in Iraq who was more or less exactly the same as Saddam in every way except he is feverishly devoted to the US? The fact is that though Saddam was a nasty bastard, as a leader he kept the lid on a pot of boiling chaos rather effectively. We've taken the lid off that pot and for various reasons we'll never be able to put it back on. The right solution, methaphorically, is to turn off the heat so the pot stops boiling, but our actions have really just been adding fuel to the fire.
Whoever wins in November's going to be stuck with a huge problem in Iraq. I think Bush has shown pretty categorically that his administration has no frickin' idea what to do about it. Based on that alone, why not try something different in Kerry - assuming he'll actually try something different? It doesn't make sense to trust the idiot who got us into Iraq, thoroughly messing everything up in the process, to effectively get us out. Any ideas, comments, disagreements?
|
-Chaloobi
|
Edited by - chaloobi on 10/15/2004 09:42:19
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2004 : 07:43:22 [Permalink]
|
Was invading Iraq a good idea?
No.
Sorry, I can't manage a single argument that turns that war into something reasonable. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
 |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 07:45:22 [Permalink]
|
Error? It wasn't an error. They knew they were illegally attacking another country. Criminals like that don't make errors. The commit crimes.
Stay in Iraq? The problem is not solved by continuing the crime. The problem in Iraq is that they have a belligerent gang of criminals in their midst. The U.S. The U.S. is and has been the problem. The U.S., after admitting their crimes, has to leave. Not tomorrow. Today.
Would that create chaos? No. Attacking Iraq created chaos. Occupying Iraq creates chaos.
Will leaving solve all the problems?
No. Leaving Iraq and admitting that it was an illegal attack is the first step in solving the problems. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 07:49:39 [Permalink]
|
Well anything can be justified from a variety of angles and since we have no knowledge of the effects of the outcome years down the line it is hard to say. For example the effects of the Korean armistice are 50 years later and still we dont know if it was a good or bad idea, if a couple nukes get dropped or the 1.75million strong armies start fighting you could say that we should have nuked them in 52 or committed troops then etc. But the other side can be justified as well.
Anyway from my personal view (wishes for sound science to rule the world) it was a bad idea, it will further perpetuate ignorant religious fervor on all sides. (There are more than 2) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 08:51:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Anyway, I'd love to hear a well reasoned argument that the war was a good idea. I don't believe there is one, but I'm always open to fresh points of view.
Hmm. You're asking the wrong people, methinks. You might try the Halliburton exeuctive branch.
The invasion of Iraq was a ghastly mistake made by people who knew nothing about the country's cultures and were too preoccupied with Saddam (and his oil) to study and learn. Rather, they told us and themselves that our troops would be met with cheering crowds and flying flowers. An RPG is a flower in only the most metephorical sense. We will all have to live with this for a long time.
I think that as long as there is an American boot on Iraqi soil, the fight will never end.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 09:52:44 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo - I'm interested in your position that the US should pull out as the first step in the right direction. I have to say I disagree by 180 degrees.
Let me explain, I'm fairly certain that if we left tomorrow, the result would be more chaos than is already there, culminating in a two or three way civil war. Probably Iran would get involved on the She-ite side and Syria on the Suni side and Turkey just because they're itching to murder some Kurds. Who knows if Jordan would get dragged in or not and I'm sure the Kuwaiti's wouldn't feel particularly secure. And you can bet your ass there'd be Jihadi training camps all over the freakin' country churning out fighters who want nothing more on the face of the Earth than to blow up something American. I think it's almost a certainty that a quick pullout without establishing some kind of lasting order would result in a situation all around worse than what is there now.
And this is without even considering the diplomatic loss of credibility to the US the world over - Yes, it's hard to imagine our geo-political status getting worse, but it really can get a LOT worse I'm sure. Right now our resolve and our military prowess is just about all the credibility we have left - lose that and who knows.
And don't forget the economic consequences either. Iraqi oil of any kind would be off the market and the Persian Gulf would be an unreliable source for as long as the region is consumed with warfare. I'm pretty sure the war is the biggest reason for the current rise in prices and if the worst happened, the price of oil will likely go orbital. And like it or not, oil is the foundation for the world economy, and the US economy more than most. |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 10/15/2004 09:58:01 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 10:16:46 [Permalink]
|
I'm not against the U.S. notifying the U.N. and other Arab countries prior to their vacating the premises, but this is a crime. There is nothing gained by continuing the crime. Should the U.S. stay without acknowledging that, without acknowledging that anything they do in the region will be seen as a corrupting influence, then the results will be tragic. In fact, U.S. involvement in the region was tragic before 2003 and is certainly even more tragic now.
We need to put Bush and company on trial and pull the troops out as soon as possible. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:00:52 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm not against the U.S. notifying the U.N. and other Arab countries prior to their vacating the premises, but this is a crime. There is nothing gained by continuing the crime. Should the U.S. stay without acknowledging that, without acknowledging that anything they do in the region will be seen as a corrupting influence, then the results will be tragic. In fact, U.S. involvement in the region was tragic before 2003 and is certainly even more tragic now.
We need to put Bush and company on trial and pull the troops out as soon as possible.
I agree with you on two points:
1. The Bush Administration knowingly deceived the US public in taking us to war. No remotely justifiable reasons existed for invading and occupying Iraq. For that, Bush and various administratin officials should be impeached, removed from office, and/or put on trial.
2. We don't have to wait for tragedy to result from our invasion of Iraq. It is already a tragedy.
But, I'm not sold on the idea that a quick pull-out would be good for the US or for the world. I seriously doubt any neutral nation would be interested in walking into the buzz saw behind the US's pullout, under the auspices of the UN or not. Iran might be interested. Turkey and Siria might be too. But they have interests of their own that will agravate the situation worse than the US presence. I really think the US must install a stable government. I really don't care what kind of government it is, but order needs to be brought back to Iraq. Like it or not, that region is absolutely key to the world economy as it is today and the consequences of civil war in Iraq, especially in light of the likelyhood of it spilling over into neighboring countries, will mean disaster for much of the world in one way or another. |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 10/15/2004 11:05:14 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:13:12 [Permalink]
|
I think recent history shows that the U.S. does not bring order to Iraq. The U.S. brings chaos.
Past history shows pretty much the same thing. Millions died in Southeast Asia thanks to the U.S. bringing 'order.'
No. This is murder, this is chaos. Get them out. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:41:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I think recent history shows that the U.S. does not bring order to Iraq. The U.S. brings chaos.
Past history shows pretty much the same thing. Millions died in Southeast Asia thanks to the U.S. bringing 'order.'
No. This is murder, this is chaos. Get them out.
The US has most definitely brought a net increase in chaos to Iraq.
----On a philosophical side note, isn't a democracy (yes, I know there's not going to be real democracy in Iraq any time soon) by it's nature more chaotic than a rigid dictatorship? ----
I don't think the US was trying to bring order to Vietnam. They believed they were trying to fight the spread of communism and preserve capitalism. But I don't think the US ever intended for - or cared about - a Democracy in Vietnam.
Probably the best possible outcome of the Iraq debacle would be something like this: The US pleads for and gets international aid in the form of troops via the UN. The new troops would come from Muslim countries and would be the principle occupying forces, leaving a much smaller US force available to do any nasty combat that might arise. Ultimate authority in Iraq would be turned over to the UN, making a big show of the US having little influence.
With more troops on the ground and more international legitimacy to the occupation, the insurgency can be effectively dealt with, one way or another. Brutality may be necessary. :( Once sufficient order is established, an election is held. The new, legitimate government, will be given lots of economic and military aid until it's able to stand on it's own feet. Time frame? Unknown. |
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:27:31 [Permalink]
|
| No reason to think the U.S. is trying to establish democracy in Iraq anymore than it did in Vietnam, or anywhere else for that matter. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:30:01 [Permalink]
|
| True enough. |
-Chaloobi
|
|
|
|
Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 13:02:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
No reason to think the U.S. is trying to establish democracy in Iraq anymore than it did in Vietnam, or anywhere else for that matter.
Except that in this specific case the Bush administration might lose face if they left Iraq without establishing anything like a democracy.
I'm with Chaloobi on this one: Leaving Iraq in a rush seems likely to result in a larger mess then necessary.
Nevertheless, peace in Iraq will have to be purchased with the blood of the young men and women in the armed forces and the local civilian population.
As for my own country: Since the presence of military personnel from more then one country builds credibility for the cause and therefor increases the chance of peace i'm reluctantly in favour of keeping our own troops there as well. Just don't ask me to look the friends and family of the dead and wounded in the eye. (This might not be an academic question as a good friend of mine is scheduled for service in Iraq early next year) |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 13:09:20 [Permalink]
|
| Oh, they will hold elections, but democracy is another matter. They do not want democracy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 13:19:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Oh, they will hold elections, but democracy is another matter. They do not want democracy.
I'm not sure Arab Islamic culture can tolerate a democracy. All you have to do is see these guys are willing to kill themselves and/or any innocents they can get their hands on at the word of their local cleric. Do you think they will vote any way other than what their cleric tells them? And is THAT democracy?
EDIT: This is one reason I concluded the Bush Team's stated goals for the war were unachievable from the beginning. |
-Chaloobi
|
| Edited by - chaloobi on 10/15/2004 13:20:32 |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 14:05:04 [Permalink]
|
| I don't think there's ever been a successful, 'true' democracy in the Middle East... why would Iraq be an exception? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
