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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2004 :  04:11:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais

Just found this, this is not concrete evidence, but it's pretty telling about the military opinion, for those of you won't take my word for it. The disparity, even if not completely accurate, is almost mind boggling.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php

Oh, there's no doubt that the militaty is conservative. I saw it back in the Nixon/Kennedy election, at least in my own, small part of it. I was one of the few that wanted Kennedy to win, altough I was too young to vote for him by a couple of weeks. The officers were dropping not-too-subtle hints that all elligible to vote should be Republican. I doubt that much has changed.

I'm sure you've learned by now that the military is not a democracy, nor should it be.

No, this fuckup is not a military fuckup; it is a political one (most fuckups on this grand of a scale are). It was concieved by ignorant people who've never served even in peace time. Do you remember that idiot Rumsfeld telling us that Iraq would be a 'cakewalk?' That Iraqis would greet our troops with flowers and candy like the French and Italians did in WW-II? A frosting of bullshit on the cake, eh? The horrid part about that is, that the administration might have actually believed it themselves.

It's a quagmire, Joe. It get's more like a desert version of 'Nam every day. Question: after Falluja(sp?), which will be over run in due course, then what?

I don't know either, nor, it seems, do the clowns running the show. Just like 'Nam.

"You have no plan, sir! What you have is a great spasm!" I forget who said that and to whom, but it holds as true today as it did in the late '60s.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 11/09/2004 07:52:48
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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2004 :  12:41:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
Most of you have seen the front page of the Daily Mirror posted by Starman earlier in this thread.

Here's the text that goes with it:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/columnists/brianreade/

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2004 :  04:38:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais

Just found this, this is not concrete evidence, but it's pretty telling about the military opinion, for those of you won't take my word for it. The disparity, even if not completely accurate, is almost mind boggling.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php

No one is doubting your opinion on the military sentiment as far as I can tell. I for one am merely doubting the significance of it. If the military forces had the run of Iraq, if they could read the graffiti and chat with the locals, if they could leave the green zone for a walk, if they could sit in on the military planning and presidential cabinet meetings, if they had access to all the news sources in a variety of countries, then their 'informed' support of Bush might be meaningful.
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joedesmarais
New Member

Iraq
18 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2004 :  13:46:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send joedesmarais a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais

Just found this, this is not concrete evidence, but it's pretty telling about the military opinion, for those of you won't take my word for it. The disparity, even if not completely accurate, is almost mind boggling.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php

No one is doubting your opinion on the military sentiment as far as I can tell. I for one am merely doubting the significance of it. If the military forces had the run of Iraq, if they could read the graffiti and chat with the locals, if they could leave the green zone for a walk, if they could sit in on the military planning and presidential cabinet meetings, if they had access to all the news sources in a variety of countries, then their 'informed' support of Bush might be meaningful.


So you're saying that the prerequisite for understanding what's 'really' going on is to attend a cabinet meeting, or sit on a military planning board, etc...? Well, let me ask all of you who are 'informed' supporters of Kerry- Have you done any of this? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you haven't. However, many in the military do have access to the same information that you do, because out of the millions in the US military, there are only about 135K over in Iraq. Even members stationed here have access (if sporadic) to the internet. I also know that those stationed over here have had many more opportunities to 'chat with locals' than many of you, no? You made my point for me, that you should acknowledge and value the military opinion, because they have insight that you do not.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2004 :  02:05:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais

.......
So you're saying that the prerequisite for understanding what's 'really' going on is to attend a cabinet meeting, or sit on a military planning board, etc...? Well, let me ask all of you who are 'informed' supporters of Kerry- Have you done any of this? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you haven't. However, many in the military do have access to the same information that you do, because out of the millions in the US military, there are only about 135K over in Iraq. Even members stationed here have access (if sporadic) to the internet. I also know that those stationed over here have had many more opportunities to 'chat with locals' than many of you, no? You made my point for me, that you should acknowledge and value the military opinion, because they have insight that you do not.

No, what I'm saying is the fact that a large number of any select group believes one way or another does not mean that group is more informed or more knowledgeable on a matter. You put so much emphasis on certain numbers, 3 million votes for Bush, the military supports him, etc. Well there are lots of equally impressive numbers against Bush.

There was a very large group of concerned scientists who penned a letter against the Bush administration's distortion of scientific evidence to support their political agenda. There are a large number of military analysts who spoke out against the Iraq invasion and predicted exactly what is currently happening. 49% of the population voted against Bush, and so on and so on.

As to the military having insight I do not, I totally disagree with that. The military, especially those in Iraq have one of the most distorted views. They can not, for the most part, talk with Iraqis. They are somewhat isolated and their beliefs and perceptions are heavily influenced by the group they are in. And, they were of a certain mindset when they joined the military in the first place.

As to whether I have sat in on a planning meeting, actually I have in a way. I have read Richard Clarke's book, both of Bob Woodward's books, and quite a few other books on Bush. As I said before, I listen on a regular basis to both left wing and right wing news sources. I took the time to learn about the history of the US interventions in the Mideast. My parents lived in Iran when the Shaw was overthrown. I have traveled extensively and I understand what it is like to be in a country the US has labeled as being in need of military intervention. I stayed with persons labeled "communists" by our government which were really people just trying to have a halfway decent life. And, I spoke their language so I was able to understand their point of view.

This doesn't mean I am the expert, nor that my opinion is the only informed opinion, but I am not speaking from an uninformed position by any means.

Bush only has the support of 1/2 the country. Seems like a lot of folks want to make more of that tiny majority in the election, but the bottom line is we are a divided country. There is no mandate, and Bush does not have such support as to be so cocky as he and his supporters seem to be.

Your presenting of supporting numbers and groups is meaningless without the rest of the picture.
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