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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2004 : 09:47:32 [Permalink]
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I read that one a little earlier, Kil, but I found it worth a re-read.
"The true enemy is within...." I don't remember who said that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 17:46:53 [Permalink]
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Considering his shameful campaign against Kerry, I would have thought him smart enough to realise he burned his bridges. "Go fuck yourself" is what I would have told him when he starts talking about reconciliation. He has time and time again proved himself unworthy of trust. It's time to take a stand and give him the finger. Tell him the buck stops right there. Of course, this is just rhetoric on my pars since I'm not an American citizen, I have nothing to say about these thing. But I'm not voluntarily going to put my foot on American soil as long as that piece of trash is president.
Well, it looks like Bush has at least started fixing our immigration problem! I'm pleased to see that everyone is as miserable as I am thrilled.I've read plenty about the greatness of democracy, but when it's results are thrust in your face, you convienently call it poop and get angry. As long as the Democratic party is in the hands of out of touch elitists, Republicans will continue to achieve outcomes similar to 2004. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 06:56:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Considering his shameful campaign against Kerry, I would have thought him smart enough to realise he burned his bridges. "Go fuck yourself" is what I would have told him when he starts talking about reconciliation. He has time and time again proved himself unworthy of trust. It's time to take a stand and give him the finger. Tell him the buck stops right there. Of course, this is just rhetoric on my pars since I'm not an American citizen, I have nothing to say about these thing. But I'm not voluntarily going to put my foot on American soil as long as that piece of trash is president.
Amen to that. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 12:27:17 [Permalink]
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| Siberia, thanks. That helps me understand joed's remarks. Joe, you need to put quotes around other people's stuff. Not only because it's ethical, but also because your posts are incoherent without them. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 11/07/2004 12:28:24 |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 13:51:43 [Permalink]
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| Ethical? Give me a break, this is a forum, not a dissertation, get out more. anyone who had actually read the whole thing would have noticed that a) I used a different size font, and b) the two paragraphs (Indented) were completely different in content. But some can keep up........ |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 14:15:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Siberia, thanks. That helps me understand joed's remarks. Joe, you need to put quotes around other people's stuff. Not only because it's ethical, but also because your posts are incoherent without them.
No problem! |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 15:02:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais
Considering his shameful campaign against Kerry, I would have thought him smart enough to realise he burned his bridges. "Go fuck yourself" is what I would have told him when he starts talking about reconciliation. He has time and time again proved himself unworthy of trust. It's time to take a stand and give him the finger. Tell him the buck stops right there. Of course, this is just rhetoric on my pars since I'm not an American citizen, I have nothing to say about these thing. But I'm not voluntarily going to put my foot on American soil as long as that piece of trash is president.
Well, it looks like Bush has at least started fixing our immigration problem! I'm pleased to see that everyone is as miserable as I am thrilled.I've read plenty about the greatness of democracy, but when it's results are thrust in your face, you convienently call it poop and get angry. As long as the Democratic party is in the hands of out of touch elitists, Republicans will continue to achieve outcomes similar to 2004.
I noticed the pink in your other post, was that supposed to be some comment as well? Two font types that are barely discernible, how clever. Get over it, joe. If you want to post confusing messages be my guest. You aren't exactly making your points here anyway.
The folks on this board and quite a few other boards are up for discussing all sorts of points of view. We actually even listen to each other. But we are also pretty good at ignoring the nonsense those without any point to make throw out. It's clear when there is no substance, people throw out crap instead. It doesn't have a lot of impact.
As to disregarding democratic election results, a 51% majority does not mean the other 49% have no value. That isn't how democracy works. Instead, there are times where a single decision is decided by 51%. And, 51% certainly decided the Presidency. But in the current political climate here in the USA, there are serious differences that just cannot be ignored because of a 1-2% majority in control.
Just as in the 60s when Nixon tried to claim a "moral majority" had preference over the anti-war movement, there are times when a minority must make it's opinions known and exert influence. Such actions in no way discount democratic principles.
We are indeed stuck with the election results. But I don't think it is safe for a barely evident majority to get too arrogant about it. The other 49% of us are not going to go out and join the nearest Evangelical Church and "find the light" or anything.
All of us will have to face reality as the Iraq situation deteriorates. If you really are there and working security as you say, I wouldn't get too cocky either. I've been paying attention to information coming out of Iraq from every possible source I can from the Internet Blogs to FOX News to Democracy Now, an independent news source. You are in some deep stuff there. And for many in "the green zone", reality is quite distorted according to those outside.
The USA has been down this road before. 54,000+ Americans did not fare well then, and there isn't much difference now except the fights are in cities instead of jungles. We burned down the jungles, but without being able to tell who was friend and who was foe, our military might never was able to deliver the decisive blow.
A lot of DOD analysts correctly predicted the current situation. They continue to predict we can not win. The Bush team chose to ignore those analysts and go with the wishful thinking of "mission accomplished". They continue to believe in their original predictions and rationalize away the obvious current conditions.
Well, now we have 4 more years. Bush will have to come to grips with reality sooner or later. I imagine Carl Rove will try to spin the failure away and maybe even successfully. I am very saddened that many more young men and women, along with countless innocent Iraqi citizens will die or be maimed in the process.
I'm not going to go. I'm not going to let my son go. Let those 51% believers send their sons and daughters. If that means leaving the country for those who were willing to fight, that's what will happen. I'll come back when enough Bush believers are dead and the remaining Americans figure out gay marriage wasn't the important issue after all.
BTW, is the war profitable for you? Lots of money to be made in that disgusting business I hear. |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 22:56:48 [Permalink]
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You're right, there was only a few percentage points seperating them. But those few points were millions of people, lets not forget. Lets also not forget that outside of the presidential race there were numerous other statements made. Republicans not only won the white house, they gained in both the senate and the house, and in all 11 states that proposed it, marriage as a man-woman institution was upheld.
While I do understand that you have strong feelings on the war, I believe you are allowing them to cloud your reasoning. If you point at every bomb, or mortar attack as proof of a 'quamire', you don't understand the nature of war. Are there and will there be casualties? Of course. But then perhaps you should also realize that the majority of fighting men and women support the president and this war. There are of course nay sayers and people who hate or disagree with this war here as well, but at least they stood by their oathes and answered the call when they had to. I'm sure you have examples of veteran groups or soldiers who are against this war, but take it from me, as a former member of the military, someone who is over here, and someone who monitors the moods and opinions expressed in the media, the majority (overwhelmingly) supports it. That should (although it won't) tell you something.
And yes, although it's a cheap shot, I am profiting from this, but unlike military members, I still pay taxes. I do not do this for profit however, but because I believe in this cause. Trust me, there is no pay that can compensate for putting ones life in danger, and I have done so on military pay as well. The fact is this enemy will not go away, no matter who logical or skeptical you in your cozy home may be. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 23:43:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
You're right, there was only a few percentage points seperating them. But those few points were millions of people, lets not forget.
What does it matter that a few percentage points represent millions of people? In a population of over 200 million, a few million people is not significant.
quote:
While I do understand that you have strong feelings on the war, I believe you are allowing them to cloud your reasoning. If you point at every bomb, or mortar attack as proof of a 'quamire', you don't understand the nature of war. Are there and will there be casualties? Of course.
Are you saying we expected a war without casualties? Because no one has ever claimed that here. The whole point is that if we didn't attack Iraq and if we didn't start a war with them, there would be no casualties in a war that doesn't exist.
quote:
There are of course nay sayers and people who hate or disagree with this war here as well, but at least they stood by their oathes and answered the call when they had to. I'm sure you have examples of veteran groups or soldiers who are against this war, but take it from me, as a former member of the military, someone who is over here, and someone who monitors the moods and opinions expressed in the media, the majority (overwhelmingly) supports it.
I will not simply, "take it from you." Hearsay is not acceptable here.
When you are talking about people who support the war, who are you talking about? The US military? Iraqi citizens? Who?
If it is the US military, are you saying that they should be able to choose who we attack and that the American people have no say? If it's the Iraqi citizens, what say do they have over what we do? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 02:48:12 [Permalink]
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Geez louizooo. You must be a philosophy teacher the way you break stuff down, but you had some good points. Yes, it was hearsay, but because they don't do polls on how military votes go, its impossible for me to prove my point on that. But you were missing the whole point anyways. It doesn't mean that the military should make decisions without the consent or care of the American people. What it does mean is that they have a better if not different view that should be taken into account by people who only have the media (biased by both sides) to count on for their info. So when I read quagmire and huge mistake and countless other names given to this war on this site, I want you to understand this other viewpoint, even if you don't accept it.
One other point, although percentage wise these few million votes aren't significant to you, they are of extreme importance. For instance, in this election, they have helped shaped and decide this countries heading in the next 4 years. I only hope that the left in this country continue to scorn or minimalized the 'crazy' religous right and religous folks in this country.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 02:56:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
:Originally posted by joedesmarais
You're right, there was only a few percentage points separating them. But those few points were millions of people, lets not forget.
Well then don't forget the 49% represented 56 million + people that voted against Bush as well.
quote:
: Lets also not forget that outside of the presidential race there were numerous other statements made. Republicans not only won the white house, they gained in both the senate and the house, and in all 11 states that proposed it, marriage as a man-woman institution was upheld.
And as I said, the red herring bone thrown to the religious right wing factions of the country brought out that extra 3 million Bush voters. Am I supposed to be impressed that a large number of people have a hang up about what other consenting adults do with their own lives? What is it about such an unimportant issue compared to a war that I am supposed to remember?
quote:
:While I do understand that you have strong feelings on the war, I believe you are allowing them to cloud your reasoning. If you point at every bomb, or mortar attack as proof of a 'quagmire', you don't understand the nature of war.
I did not point to any bomb nor attack as evidence of a 'quagmire'. Try again. I pointed to the evidence the Iraqi people do not as a whole support our actions. I pointed to the fact you cannot tell who is for you and who isn't. And, I pointed to the fact that the situation has gone seriously down hill from the infamous "mission accomplished" Bush speech. The evidence is pretty overwhelming that the war is going badly, it was ill conceived, and you don't have to believe me, time will tell. I am not listening to a few prime time news shows for information. I have made an effort to be as informed on the war as I can. There are many many sources of information. I do not have clouded vision.
quote:
:Are there and will there be casualties? Of course. But then perhaps you should also realize that the majority of fighting men and women support the president and this war.
Can you say the same about the Iraqis? Remember, they were not the supposed enemy, Saddam was. Don't you think they should have a say in the matter?
quote:
:There are of course nay sayers and people who hate or disagree with this war here as well, but at least they stood by their oaths and answered the call when they had to. I'm sure you have examples of veteran groups or soldiers who are against this war, but take it from me, as a former member of the military, someone who is over here, and someone who monitors the moods and opinions expressed in the media, the majority (overwhelmingly) supports it. That should (although it won't) tell you something.
Oh, I have no doubt there are a few more Bush supporters in the military than in the population as a whole. It only tells me what I already know. There are 51% of the people in this country who think we are fighting terrorism in Iraq. (The supposed WMDs, the imminent threat, Saddam's connections to al Qaeda and the 9-11 attack, you know, all that stuff that even the Bush administration admits was based on bad information.)
We might be fighting someone, but it isn't the pre-existing terrorism. We are merely fighting the new terrorism we created by going there.
quote:
:And yes, although it's a cheap shot, I am profiting from this, but unlike military members, I still pay taxes. I do not do this for profit however, but because I believe in this cause. Trust me, there is no pay that can compensate for putting ones life in danger, and I have done so on military pay as well. The fact is this enemy will not go away, no matter who logical or skeptical you in your cozy home may be.
Your right, it was a cheap shot, though I was truly curious.
My next question to you is, who is this enemy you are fighting? Saddam is in jail. Al Qaeda wasn't there before we got there. Bin Laden certainly isn't there. Do you think you are fighting a few Sunni leftovers who were with Saddam? Or is it possible there is a large segment of the population who see you as the enemy rather than the liberator?
You are in their country. They had nothing to do with attacking the US. Bush decided to get rid of Saddam but you can't exactly say we were invited by any segment of the Iraq population.
Just after the first gulf war the population might have welcomed us in the North and South. The Kurds may be happy we are there now. I understand the country is functioning a bit better in their area. The Shiites may be happy Saddam is gone and they may be hopeful their majority in number will get them a better deal. But they don't exactly trust us.
So just what mission are you on? Make Iraq better for the Iraqis? Or could it be more like install a capitalist friendly government, pump a few billion US dollars into the infrastructure that pumps out the oil. Do it through US companies. And voila, you have a new oil market and a fake democracy for the country. We've been down that road in this very part of the world before.
And why am I cynical? Do you see billions being used to pump oil and build that infrastructure and to build US air bases? Or do you see the money going to build power plants, sewage facilities, hospitals, schools, and roads that aren't related to oil production or military? Do you see the money being paid to Iraqis who need jobs to recover? Or do you see the money going to Halliburton and other major non-Iraqi contractors?
What are we going to do after bombing the shit out of Falusha? How will the military sort out the men? Do they all go to jail? If you were a young man there, would you give up after the Abu Garib prison scandals, even if you didn't side with al Zarkawi? Do we just empty the town and hope it tows the line after we let them back in? Is there even a plan to follow after the usual mission accomplished attack which we have no trouble doing?
Even on a small scale of one town, I bet there is an attack plan and no peace plan for when the assault on Falusha is done. It isn't anti war sentiments I have, it's a clear belief Bush doesn't know what he's doing and has already made devastating decisions. We have more to come.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 11/09/2004 03:00:49 |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
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Topic Locked
