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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/03/2004 : 13:39:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
This is a great day to pack my things and go off to Sweden, before the whole "YOU'RE SMUGGLING MASS DESTRUCTION WEAPONS FOR TERRORISTS!!!!" reaches us.
I hear ya!
I too, am wondering how difficult it is to learn the language and aquire a taste for the Swedish version of lutifisk.
Doc, can you help us out, here? 
Nah. I'll do what I've done all of my life; tough it out and fight when I can.
Chip and I think alike. There is indeed a possibility of a Bush 'Watergate.' There is also the possibility that, with a Republican Congress, it will be buried before it can come to anything. It depends upon whether some of those congress types manage to develop a conscience. We shall see in due course.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 13:53:26 [Permalink]
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With no need for Bush to worry about remaining "centrist" for a future election, expect a scorched-earth campaign of social reform. Expect more faith-based funding. Expect the Supreme Court to be loaded with anti-abortion conservatives. Expect energy and logging companies to be given free reign to rape whatever pristine ecological sources remain. Expect further isolation from Europe and traditional allies. Expect more terror threats and a further eroding of of American liberties.
And expect the majority of the American public to express gratitude for all of it.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/03/2004 13:54:38 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 14:01:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
While revolution might be a knee-jerk response, saying that the US Civil War was over slavery alone and that no rational person supported it in 1860 is oversimplification.
Well, I never said the civil war was only about slavery. That was just the one example I gave. As you say, there were many factors. Taken as a whole though I still think it was the irrational vs. the rational. Just as I consider "most" of those who voted for Bush to be irrational. It's the only logical conclusion I can come to.
I apollogize for assuming you thought slavery was the sole cause of the Civil war. However, terming them as irrational does not take into account the prevailing erroneous opinion of the populous that slave minorities were inferior or that slavery was considered an absolute moral wrong.
Its the politics of fear and people who accept Bush's premises which elected Bush coupled with an effective ground strategy to get out the Republican vote. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 11/03/2004 14:02:35 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 14:07:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
With no need for Bush to worry about remaining "centrist" for a future election, expect a scorched-earth campaign of social reform. Expect more faith-based funding. Expect the Supreme Court to be loaded with anti-abortion conservatives. Expect energy and logging companies to be given free reign to rape whatever pristine ecological sources remain. Expect further isolation from Europe and traditional allies. Expect more terror threats and a further eroding of of American liberties.
And expect the majority of the American public to express gratitude for all of it.
And Roy's Rock will be in the foyer of the Justice Department.
At this point I am tempted to spam for the ACLU.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 15:30:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
But kudos to the GOP for running a maserful campaign. They've obviously figured out much better than the Dems that if you repeat the lies often enough, our hapless electorate will believe it!
Yeah, apparently repetition trumps reality.
The 18-24 vote never got off the block this year (same as for every year) and they are largely democrat. "How long is that line? An hour? Fuck that! My X-Box is callin me!" The white christian evangelical vote (aka- stupid rednecks) got their asses out to the polls in big numbers.
I've said it before (maybe not in this forum) but MOST people will decide their vote on a single issue. Rove hammered the nation with the "ban gay marriage" nonsense, and it worked. 10 states passed discimination ammendments to their state constitutions. The religious rednecks are the ones who went out and voted, because of a few wedge issues.
So.... C88, you stupid fuckers deserve what your going to get. The SAD thing is, you all probably WANT shit like PA2 to pass, WANT the new "endless war" to continue to propigate, and you don't give a fuck about the environment because you live in the "end times" anyway. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 15:54:45 [Permalink]
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Didn't we have more right-wingers here? Where's Garrette? Didn't he and some others support this band of criminals?
I remember being criticized for protesting Clinton's war against the people of Iraq and Yugoslavia. I remember being criticized for protesting Bush's illegal attack on Afghanistan.
I understand that, but I certainly thought that people would see that this latest war on the people of Iraq was criminal and demand that this band of criminals be ousted, but no, they actually ran for office again. Today, they're not only free to walk around, they're back in office ready to lower wages, end taxes for the wealthy and spread their particular brand of terrorism all over the world. The best the Democrats could do would be to call this a 'mistake.' The best Kerry could do would be to say that we should have not begun this murderous rampage without international help. None of them talked about the fact that this war was a crime against humanity, and as much in violation of international law as the attack Saddam undertook against Kuwait with April Glaspie's permission. A violation of the UN Charter is also a violation of article 6 of the Constitution, which states that treaties are the law of the land.
What will it take for this to end? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 16:04:10 [Permalink]
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For such people "Stupid Rednecks" they sure did wield alot of votes and were more organized than the ivory tower liberal intellectuals.
If you voted, good for you. You are part of the greatest voter turnout in near 40 years.
If you did not vote, SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. You are part of the problem.
Kerry was not good for the country. His history in the Senate has been one of political expedience. He wanted the gov't to have back door keys for encryption technology("Clipper Chip"). He voted for the Patriot Act, which was a revamped version of Gore's Directorate of Law Enforcement proposal.
He qaushed HR 2883 so that his cousin's business could make investments in Vietnam. He stated that life begins at conception but voted against the ban on partial birth abortion. He voted to give the President authority to use force. The bill was so vague that it gives the executive branch way too much power. He abrogated his duty as a Senator. The sooner he is gone the better.
Bush won't have any scandals. Cheney might if the Halliburton probe goes into full swing. So, he might have to step down.
BTW, DUDE your quote from Madison is really misplaced. Research what he was talking about. Madison was a devout Baptist. The quote is from a letter to a friend in Pennsylvania regarding the persecution of Baptists in GA (I believe) by the Church of England. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 16:04:35 [Permalink]
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This is from Justin Podur at zmag.org:
"That means that it is time to admit something. The greatest divide in the world today is not between the US elite and its people, or the US elite and the people of the world. It is between the US people and the rest of the world. The first time around, George W Bush was not elected. When the United States planted cluster bombs all over Afghanistan, disrupted the aid effort there, killed thousands of people, and occupied the country, it could be interpreted as the actions of a rogue group who had stolen the elections and used terrorism as a pretext to wage war. When the United States invaded Iraq, killing 100,000 at the latest count, it could be argued that no one had really asked the American people about it and that the American people had been lied to. When the United States kidnapped Haiti's president and installed a paramilitary dictatorship, it could be argued that these were the actions of an unelected group with contempt for democracy.
With this election, all of those actions have been retroactively justified by the majority of the American people." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 16:37:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
With no need for Bush to worry about remaining "centrist" for a future election, expect a scorched-earth campaign of social reform. Expect more faith-based funding. Expect the Supreme Court to be loaded with anti-abortion conservatives. Expect energy and logging companies to be given free reign to rape whatever pristine ecological sources remain. Expect further isolation from Europe and traditional allies. Expect more terror threats and a further eroding of of American liberties.
And expect the majority of the American public to express gratitude for all of it.
My friend Eliot has a theory that seeks to explain both the "lick the hand that beats you" mentality and the peculiar need to find someone else to beat for one's own self-validation that seem so common today.
He suspects that it has to do with how we cope with our first experience of being the "other": whether it starts us on getting the knack of standing in the other guy's shoes, that is, learning empathy, or we decide to seek safety by trying always to be with the herd.
After a few years of observing the astonishing venom that permeates what passes for online political discourse, and the general descent of the world into meatheadism, I'm not inclined to take a charitable view of this phenomenon. I'm afraid I lack Eliot's strength of character.
So, after a bit of Googling to find an online version of something I remembered from my childhood reading, let me offer these two chapters from Penrod:
Rupe Collins
The Imitator
as an illustration of the behavior that I see as having been becoming normative.
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
| Edited by - ktesibios on 11/03/2004 16:41:33 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 20:23:57 [Permalink]
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Dude, I think it was one issue, too, but I think it was "security", not gay marriage.
Many people seem to distrust Democrats on national security. I'm not sure this is any more founded than the other not-terribly-true things that Republicans believe, but it seems pervasive.
Kerry was an honorable man who would have been a great president. He was intelligent, thoughtful, capable of understanding complexity, moderately liberal, and wise enough to keep his personal religion out of his politics.
I am diametrically opposed to 100% of what Bush does, stands for, and is. And he is a frigging moron besides.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 21:00:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Dude, I think it was one issue, too, but I think it was "security", not gay marriage.
I was listening to NPR on the ride into work today. According to their polls, the number one factor considered most important by voters was "morals," followed by "security" in second place.
"Morals" does seem to be code for the issues of abortion, gay marriage, and faith-based intiatives. However, not everyone who voted for Bush agrees with him on these issues, obviously. But I think it would be fair to say the large majority do.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/03/2004 21:02:43 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 21:36:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
For such people "Stupid Rednecks" they sure did wield alot of votes and were more organized than the ivory tower liberal intellectuals.
Hi Rubicon95 and welcome to SFN.
No one said that 'Rednecks' (including many from my home state of Oklahoma) or other Bush supporters weren't organized. Indeed, as I noted in an earlier post, the GOP is frighteningly organized. RNC spin points make it to the right wing echo-chamber that is talk radio almost hourly, where they can be spouted unchallenged to willing listeners almost around the clock. Repeated enough, they become part of the political discourse. Our 'liberal' press corps, too frightened to openly challenge RNC distortions for fear of the 'liberal' cries from the right, let the lies go and in no time Gore says he invented the internet and Kerry's a flip-flopper. Meanwhile, liberals are all effete intellecuals who are out of touch with the main stream with their plans to ban the Bible and ceede power to France/the UN.
No, Rubicon, the GOP is quite organized. I used to think that it was admirable for the left to try and have frank discussions about issues, but now I'm not so sure.
quote:
Bush won't have any scandals. Cheney might if the Halliburton probe goes into full swing. So, he might have to step down.
More likely-- if any Bush scandals surface, they'll be deftly swept under the rug as the echo chamber shouts "liberal media" at the top of their collective lungs and waits for the mess to die down. Same goes for that smarmy jackass Cheney. No, the only way he's leaving is on a stretcher attached to a defibulator. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 21:40:17 [Permalink]
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I was driving home from a well-deserved week off and listened to it all unfold on the seven hour drive. I am to be quite honest, shattered that this man could get back in.
If any politician in Australia was a miserable failure like this man they would have been shown the door quick smart. Even though our conservative government got voted back in, at least our economy is going great guns and we are 70 odd billion in the black. I am worried what is going to happen in the next couple of years. Whether the extreme right wing agenda will continue.
Will Roe vs. Wade be overturned by the new Supreme Court?
Will you deficit become so large, that our exporters will be unable to compete due to an over inflated Australian dollar?
Will progressive thinking be stifled?
Will creationism be bought back into schools?
Will PA2 come into fruition?
Will women lose the right over their own bodies?
Will Brittany Spears still be allowed to make a mockery of marriage whilst any loving homosexuals will continue to be persecuted?
Will the Bush doctrine of pre-emption become commonplace?
Who is next? Iran? Syria? Or some other pissant country that can't fight back?
Of course it all will, the fucking world is going backwards and it pisses me off.
I bet the people of Falujah are preparing for the onslaught that will happen in the next week or so, I recently read that the people in Falujah are compensated US$2,500 for the death of any family member, somewhat less if the said person is of military age. So that is the value of an Iraqi life.
What is the world coming to?
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 00:09:37 [Permalink]
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Posted by Rubicon95
quote:
Madison was a devout Baptist.
Really? Care to reference that assertion. I've always been under the impression Madison was socially Episcopal, but more or less adhered to the Deist leanings so common among the leaders of the Enlightenment.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0194030.html
http://www.usconstitution.com/PresByReligion.htm
Now, concerning this election;
I've been a pain in my wife's ass since Florida came in. However, I'm not surprised. I've been listening to this "values" BS for quite awhile. The amendment to the Louisiana state constitution defining marriage a month ago was the point I saw the inevitable. I realized that too many Americans are really afraid of anything they don't understand. I realized that too many people think sex is bad, but killing in the name of God and country is good, (unless addressing the issue of abortion, where the life of the unborn outweighs the life of those already contributing to society).
Fear is at the base of these people's feelings, and this fear is daily reinforced by the media and the GOP.
What truly bothers me is that so many people seem committed to some vague, fuzzily defined idea of values, but care little about what is truly right and wrong and what is best for their families and communities in the long run. Where is the foresight?
The Christian right are perhaps the worst. They shun the Constitution Party that truly represents their ideology, and cling onto a party that is determined to use them for no more than their votes. Let's face it. If the Republicans were truly interested in the issue of abortion, they could have passed legislation on a national level. Instead they pushed the fear of Islaamic fundamentalists to the Christian fundamentalist and cut billions in taxes to mainly the wealthiest ten per cent of us with a false promise of sustained economic growth for the middle class.
And, the fundies buy this BS handed to them by their TV evangelists and the right wing media spin machine, organizing the vote through tax exempt churches. They now say that Jesus never wanted them to live with less than the rest of their peers. They bought into an illusion that wealth was good, even though they'd never see it. They miss the point that Jesus ministered repeatedly against the accumulation of wealth, but never against who ordinary people love. They insist wealth is good and who someone else loves is bad based on twisted and out of context interpretations of the letters of Paul and cherry picked old testament verses and stories.
Those are the people that Valiant Dancer said counterbalanced the newly registered young. Those are the people led by the carrot and stick of coroporate America. The corporate right allows the religious right to have some of their social issues in exchange for a easily manipulated voting block.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 00:28:20 [Permalink]
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I, also, agree that Bush won't be seriously affected by any scandals. But, I will add that Cheney will be forgiven if he is implicated in recent or future scandals. However, this could change if we're further attacked by terrorists, if the economy seriously tanks, or we continue with a quagmire in Iraq, (or elsewhere), forcing a draft within the next two years.
There are a few things that scared, uncertain moderates will jump the GOP ship on. They still can protest with their vote in '06.
The GOP has firm control of every branch of the federal government, and the court is about to make a serious turn from right of center to right of common sense. Plus, the GOP has a strong hold on the majority of state governors. They can do what they want, but some things still can't be hidden from the general public.
Unfortunately, I don't think that Rove will let it go that far. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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