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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2004 : 06:23:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
It's going to be an interesting disaster, I think. Bush has had pretty much a free ride thus far, but now he's going to have to pay up. And being in hock to the religious right is like owing a loan shark: the vigorish is high and they're never satisfied.
I suppose he'll again go for a Constitutional Amendment defining marriage, which is almost as silly, indeed stupid, as the one involving flag-burning. I'm not sure he'll get that one, although a couple of my fundier neighbors assure me that it's a shoo-in.
We're in trouble on the scientific front, though, and not just stem cell research. This administration ignores or derides any and all science that disagrees with it's own warped viewpoints and philosophy. We are going to be left well behind the rest of the world, there. Once upon a time, scientists flocked here to study and do research. That might no longer be so.
Roe vs, Wade: that's going to be the hot one, perhaps for the next, four years. If Bush can get the appointments on the SC, he might overturn it. I'm not sure he can get those appointments, even with Specter pussing out. And if he does get them, it might turn out to be a political disaster for Republicans. Nobody likes abortion, but I've read that a large percentage support the right to choose.
I wonder what would be done if Jenna or the other one got, *ahem* 'illicetly' knocked up and can't remember who done it.
If spending and other fisical policies keep going as they are, and they will, the stench of economic necrosis will soon be very noticible.
At the moment, I don't think that we will be invading Iran or anybody else, anytime soon. The military simply lacks enough warm bodies to meet our current obligations plus Iraq, which is turning into a meat grinder. Unless, sometime along about March, sufficent time for the pathetic American attention span to have forgotten the "no draft" statments made a month or so back, a draft is instituted. The kicker here is that it takes time to build a conscripted force and I think that resistance to it will be fierce, perhaps even more so than during 'Nam.
In short, I'm not so sure the Republicans and their religious right goombahs have won much of anything beyond their own, eventual undoing.
Be careful what you wish for, eh?
Why doesn't anyone talk about the environment anymore? The harm Bush is doing to environmental protection in the US is unprecedented in the history of environmental law. That, at a minimum, literally affects the health of everyone who lives in this country, to say nothing of preserving the nations natural resources and heritage.
About the draft - I'd think Bush would keep the US military in the grinder or pull out and fail before he'd start a draft. Such a thing would be political suicide. . . . Republican policy only works so long as most people don't feel the direct effects. Most people don't bother with the military. Most people don't get abortions. Most people don't perceive a personal need for stem cell related research. Most people don't care if gays can marry or not. But you start yanking kids into the military against their will and the shit will hit the fan. |
-Chaloobi
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 06:59:06 [Permalink]
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'loobie, the environment is a part of science that this irresponsible gang of gluttons ignore and deride. That too, will come back to bite. In the mean time, we're gonna lose, bigtime.
Unfortunatly, from Bush's point of view, a draft is the only way to realize the ambitions he has in the Mid East. Iraq is no more than a cynical war of conquest. It can also be argued that it is a religious crusade against Islam, as some of our more foolish preachers and at least one general has stated.
It will be a political disaster if he lets our military be decimated and pulls out with nothing to show for it beyond a decimated military. Have you noticed that there has been no official count of the wounded, mainly those who have been hit seriously enough that they couldn't be sewn up and sent back to duty? Or at least none that I've seen. Last time I was at the VA hospital (I'm in and out of there quite a bit), I saw a couple of very young amputees. Not pretty. And I think that it would be a rude awakening to the public if those numbers were posted. I have read as many as 20,000 +, but it's unconfirmed. The Iraqi toll is said to be somewhere around 100,000, also unconfirmed.
Bush is between a rock and a hard place on this one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 07:35:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why doesn't anyone talk about the environment anymore?
Because the tabliod media doesn't think it's news. No marketshare to be gained by reporting about theboring old environment, especially since the president and his gang deny that they are causing any harm to it. That proves that the people who complain about the environment are nothing more than extremists and alarmists.
/sarcasm off
filthy- I had read something last year, when the death toll was around 800 or so, that there were 5-6000 other casualties to badly wounded to return to active duty. Was in some newspaper... |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 07:59:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
'loobie, the environment is a part of science that this irresponsible gang of gluttons ignore and deride. That too, will come back to bite. In the mean time, we're gonna lose, bigtime.
Unfortunatly, from Bush's point of view, a draft is the only way to realize the ambitions he has in the Mid East. Iraq is no more than a cynical war of conquest. It can also be argued that it is a religious crusade against Islam, as some of our more foolish preachers and at least one general has stated.
It will be a political disaster if he lets our military be decimated and pulls out with nothing to show for it beyond a decimated military. Have you noticed that there has been no official count of the wounded, mainly those who have been hit seriously enough that they couldn't be sewn up and sent back to duty? Or at least none that I've seen. Last time I was at the VA hospital (I'm in and out of there quite a bit), I saw a couple of very young amputees. Not pretty. And I think that it would be a rude awakening to the public if those numbers were posted. I have read as many as 20,000 +, but it's unconfirmed. The Iraqi toll is said to be somewhere around 100,000, also unconfirmed.
Bush is between a rock and a hard place on this one.
You're right. The stakes are VERY high in this project. If we fail in Iraq, the geo-political consequences are too nasty to contemplate. At this point, if we succeed, well, things won't be aweful, but they won't be great. Something tells me it will be something in between - what, I can't imagine.
Really, all Bush needs to do is achieve a self-sustaining state long enough for him to wipe his hands of it - at least long enough to get past the next 4 years, that is. Then he can wash his hands of it and claim something like 'the terrorists destabilized the fledgling Democracy we created in Iraq. This could happen in the US. Be afraid. Vote Republican."
They'll spin it right and enough of the US public will be brainwashed by the right wing propaganda being whispered in their ears every day to carry another election. Or so that's likely the plan. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Lies will carry the day in the end, just like last Nov. 2. |
-Chaloobi
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 08:29:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
They'll spin it right and enough of the US public will be brainwashed by the right wing propaganda being whispered in their ears every day to carry another election.
Like the link --> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6330851 that joedesmarais posted.
Joe Scarborough lametned over several 'great' writers, including one his own favourite writers, a Pulitzer Price winner etc for being "bigoted liberals", without realizing that they might be right and he may be wrong.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 08:33:17 [Permalink]
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Yeah, black days are coming on pretty much every front, and those who don't know it are the ones that will soon find it out.
To get even a semi-stable government, however tempory, will require the Iraqs and their new-found allies to stop fighting. I don't see it happening. I know that in their shoes, I wouldn't.
And even if Bush buggs out, the question will be; where's the loot? Where's the oil that could get gas prices back to within reason?
Oh right; we're gonna dig that out of Alaska. Rooster's ass!
I don't have a hell of a lot of faith in the judgment of most of my countrymen (look at how the ignorant fuckers don't vote), but when the pain gets bad enough I think they'll start recalling past lies and rejecting the new ones.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 08:39:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Yeah, black days are coming on pretty much every front, and those who don't know it are the ones that will soon find it out.
To get even a semi-stable government, however tempory, will require the Iraqs and their new-found allies to stop fighting. I don't see it happening. I know that in their shoes, I wouldn't.
And even if Bush buggs out, the question will be; where's the loot? Where's the oil that could get gas prices back to within reason?
Oh right; we're gonna dig that out of Alaska. Rooster's ass!
I don't have a hell of a lot of faith in the judgment of most of my countrymen (look at how the ignorant fuckers don't vote), but when the pain gets bad enough I think they'll start recalling past lies and rejecting the new ones.
This will be the ultimate test of the Republican election machine - which includes pundits like Limbaugh and his clones. Can they lie their way out of failure in Iraq when they have all the levers of our government under their control? I never thought they'd be able to lie their way into a second term and I was categorically wrong. So we'll see how far propaganda elevated to a science can really go. |
-Chaloobi
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 14:28:28 [Permalink]
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Heck I remember when gas was less than a buck.
I don't think having Iraq's oil fields will reduce the gas prices. The economies of China and India are beginning to take off. They are beginning to consume oil like we do. And they WILL give our economy a run for its money. Bout time someone breaks it too the US oil companies to start seriously thinking of being energy providers than oil providers.
No matter what this war and tenuous peace won't reduce gas prices. If the oil companies feel that, we can pay for $2.10 per gallon. They'll keep it at that |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 11:34:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
[quote]Originally posted by Ricky
we would not choose God or the right way to behave for any other reason than fear.
But of course the neocon death-cult does want us to make choices from fear, and nothing but fear. This past election saw the most fear-mongering campaign by the Republican party in the history of our great republic. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 13:50:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Yeah, black days are coming on pretty much every front, and those who don't know it are the ones that will soon find it out.
To get even a semi-stable government, however tempory, will require the Iraqs and their new-found allies to stop fighting. I don't see it happening. I know that in their shoes, I wouldn't.
And even if Bush buggs out, the question will be; where's the loot? Where's the oil that could get gas prices back to within reason?
Oh right; we're gonna dig that out of Alaska. Rooster's ass!
I don't have a hell of a lot of faith in the judgment of most of my countrymen (look at how the ignorant fuckers don't vote), but when the pain gets bad enough I think they'll start recalling past lies and rejecting the new ones.
This will be the ultimate test of the Republican election machine - which includes pundits like Limbaugh and his clones. Can they lie their way out of failure in Iraq when they have all the levers of our government under their control? I never thought they'd be able to lie their way into a second term and I was categorically wrong. So we'll see how far propaganda elevated to a science can really go.
It has been said that any nation is only three meals away from revolution.
That's an over-simplifaction, but there is a certain, horrid truth in it. When the pain get's bad enough, there will be a reaction.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 04:02:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais
Those crazy religious Christians! Wanting to end abortions and protect life, teach abstinence, protect marriage, advocating for tv without filth and nudity, stopping human cloning.
Listen, I know that you're disturbed by the influence of Christianity in America, and well you should be. I just don't understand why, help educate me!
Maybe because it's a bunch of hypocritical BS?
End abortions, protect life: When abortions were illegal, women died because it just isn't as simple as saying have the baby and let someone adopt it. I'm not going to debate that with you right now so don't bother.
Death penalty is OK? The innocence project has found a large percentage of convicted criminals are innocent as proved by DNA. There is no way all 100+ persons Bush allowed to be killed were guilty. It is statistically impossible.
No abortion but gee, if a few babies are killed by collateral damage in Iraq so what?
Teach abstinence? Never mind about other cultures or other Americans for that matter that don't have the same values. Oh no, everyone should have 'Christian values'.
Never mind teaching abstinence does nothing to prevent HIV or unnecessary abortions. Teach it all you want to your kids, I prefer to educate mine since I know at some point he will make his own decisions. I prefer he knows more, not less.
Protect marriage. From what? It bothers you your neighbors are gay? Get over it, genes aren't contagious.
TV without 'filth' and 'nudity'? Well, in my view, nudity is not filthy. It is your body. We all have one. It might be nice to keep the violence on TV down a bit, but I have no issues if heaven forbid my son sees a breast. Women go topless on European beaches and last I checked there weren't rampant perverts attacking women at random. In fact, it seems the Catholic Priesthood was more conducive to pedophiles than TV watchers in particular.
So why is it you think your preferences hold some superior status over my preferences? I am a law abiding, working, middle class homeowner. I live a pretty normal life. As a single mom. I have raised a very nice boy. He doesn't use drugs, he doesn't drink, he doesn't get in fights, he gets good grades. Where do you get off telling me how to live my life?
Show me where there is scientific evidence the absurd things you choose to focus on as important really impact the world?
Show me the evidence outlawing abortion will save more babies than working to provide clean water and basic medical care to the impoverished kids of the world. Show me the evidence outlawing abortion will save more babies than ending the bombing of Iraqi cities and the slaughter in Sudan, or ending the AIDS epidemic, or getting measles vaccine to the millions of unvaccinated kids in the world.
Show me the evidence seeing a naked human body damages a kid's mind. Show me how that is more harmful than having guns in your house. Show me the evidence abstinence can be taught? Or that teaching a kid about sex, their body, birth control or STDs makes them horny.
Show me a Christian who isn't a hypocrite. The whole GOP campaign was based on outright purposeful lies. Isn't that against the 8th commandment? Where is the commandment that says gays are worse than lying? Where is the commandment that says gays are worse than adulterers? Aren't the commandments supposed to be the most important laws? Oh ya, and what's with those Christians removing restrictions on torture? It's OK to torture prisoners to get information? Not in my moral directory it isn't.
Isn't a Christian supposed to be tolerant? Or is that a big lie as well?
So what morals do matter? I'd say, doing good for others, not doing things that hurt others. Pull your own weight and help those who can't pull enough to get by without help. Respect everyone beliefs rather than thinking your beliefs are more correct than theirs. Don't waste resources. Work to protect the environment. The world is our house, we don't want to trash it. Love your children, your parents, your partner, your friends, your family.
Those are the values that matter, not worrying about some gay couple kissing in public or wanting to have the same rights as non-gay couples. Not condemning a woman because she cannot go through a pregnancy for whatever reasons you have no right to judge her for. There are plenty of other babies to save. When you've saved all them you might have a 'moral' right to try to save an unborn fetus.
Why are my moral values superior to yours? Because my values are aimed at making the world a better place for all. Yours only serve to tie your group together with supposed 'God goals'. 'God goals' keep the church leaders in power. They might make 'believers' happy. But they do not serve the greater good of humanity. If you want to believe I'm immoral for wanting to make the world better for people rather than better for God, at least keep it to yourself.
BTW, I would be happy and tolerate your religion, just as I tolerate and even enjoy many other religious cultures, if Christians weren't trying to take over the government and shove their views down my throat. Since when did practicing religion become a mandate to make that practice a law? You might think God wants you to 'save me' but since when does that include making your religion the law? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 11/13/2004 04:13:43 |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 14:46:38 [Permalink]
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[/quote]Maybe because it's a bunch of hypocritical BS?
End abortions, protect life: When abortions were illegal, women died because it just isn't as simple as saying have the baby and let someone adopt it. I'm not going to debate that with you right now so don't bother.
Death penalty is OK? The innocence project has found a large percentage of convicted criminals are innocent as proved by DNA. There is no way all 100+ persons Bush allowed to be killed were guilty. It is statistically impossible.
No abortion but gee, if a few babies are killed by collateral damage in Iraq so what?
Teach abstinence? Never mind about other cultures or other Americans for that matter that don't have the same values. Oh no, everyone should have 'Christian values'.
Never mind teaching abstinence does nothing to prevent HIV or unnecessary abortions. Teach it all you want to your kids, I prefer to educate mine since I know at some point he will make his own decisions. I prefer he knows more, not less.
Protect marriage. From what? It bothers you your neighbors are gay? Get over it, genes aren't contagious.
TV without 'filth' and 'nudity'? Well, in my view, nudity is not filthy. It is your body. We all have one. It might be nice to keep the violence on TV down a bit, but I have no issues if heaven forbid my son sees a breast. Women go topless on European beaches and last I checked there weren't rampant perverts attacking women at random. In fact, it seems the Catholic Priesthood was more conducive to pedophiles than TV watchers in particular.
So why is it you think your preferences hold some superior status over my preferences? I am a law abiding, working, middle class homeowner. I live a pretty normal life. As a single mom. I have raised a very nice boy. He doesn't use drugs, he doesn't drink, he doesn't get in fights, he gets good grades. Where do you get off telling me how to live my life?
Show me where there is scientific evidence the absurd things you choose to focus on as important really impact the world?
Show me the evidence outlawing abortion will save more babies than working to provide clean water and basic medical care to the impoverished kids of the world. Show me the evidence outlawing abortion will save more babies than ending the bombing of Iraqi cities and the slaughter in Sudan, or ending the AIDS epidemic, or getting measles vaccine to the millions of unvaccinated kids in the world.
Show me the evidence seeing a naked human body damages a kid's mind. Show me how that is more harmful than having guns in your house. Show me the evidence abstinence can be taught? Or that teaching a kid about sex, their body, birth control or STDs makes them horny.
Show me a Christian who isn't a hypocrite. The whole GOP campaign was based on outright purposeful lies. Isn't that against the 8th commandment? Where is the commandment that says gays are worse than lying? Where is the commandment that says gays are worse than adulterers? Aren't the commandments supposed to be the most important laws? Oh ya, and what's with those Christians removing restrictions on torture? It's OK to torture prisoners to get information? Not in my moral directory it isn't.
Isn't a Christian supposed to be tolerant? Or is that a big lie as well?
So what morals do matter? I'd say, doing good for others, not doing things that hurt others. Pull your own weight and help those who can't pull enough to get by without help. Respect everyone beliefs rather than thinking your beliefs are more correct than theirs. Don't waste resources. Work to protect the environment. The world is our house, we don't want to trash it. Love your children, your parents, your partner, your friends, your family.
Those are the values that matter, not worrying about some gay couple kissing in public or wanting to have the same rights as non-gay couples. Not condemning a woman because she cannot go through a pregnancy for whatever reasons you have no right to judge her for. There are plenty of other babies to save. When you've saved all them you might have a 'moral' right to try to save an unborn fetus.
Why are my moral values superior to yours? Because my values are aimed at making the world a better place for all. Yours only serve to tie your group together with supposed 'God goals'. 'God goals' keep the church leaders in power. They might make 'believers' happy. But they do not serve the greater good of humanity. If you want to believe I'm immoral for wanting to make the world better for people rather than better for God, at least keep it to yourself.
BTW, I would be happy and tolerate your religion, just as I tolerate and even enjoy many other religious cultures, if Christians weren't trying to take over the government and shove their views down my throat. Since when did practicing religion become a mandate to make that practice a law? You might think God wants you to 'save me' but since when does that include making your religion the law?
[/quote]
Wow, well said, and with a lot of feelings I'm guessing. I think that your views are very representative of a lot of of Americans. I'm not sure what your experience with Christians has been, but like other religions, it is premature to lump them all together. As other people have correctly pointed out, for a US general to characterize all 'muslims' as the enemy, is very wrong. The US does not have a problem with Islam, they have a problem with extremists. Its unfair to paint with so broad a brush I think.
I do see your point about helping dying children around the world, and hunger problems, killing of civilians, etc. Christians should be doing much more to aid in these crisis around the world. But to say that they already are not trying to is very unfair. Christians are in just about every country around the world lending aid to those less fortunate; the same cannot be said for many other religions can it? And while I agreed with your point, this does not support your other ones. Just because Christians are not doing what you would like in the rest of the world, does not mean they cannot attempt to do so in our country. Is it fair to say that Christians must first solve the problems of the world before they have a say in the United States? I don't think so.
I think that the underlying problem is is that you don't understand the nature of Christianity. I am only speaking for myself here, but for anyone who truly believes in the Bible (whether you agree with their beliefs or not), it is incumbent on them not to just believe, but to act. And Christians are supposed to always be intolerant? Who told you that? Did you read that on this site? It's foolishness. Christians are not supposed to 'judge', but there are many examples of figures in the Bible refusing to accept sin, or evil in their world. Jesus was not 'tolerant' of those using a temple as a place of business. He was angry, even throwing them out. When Paul saw problems within the Christian church itself, did he tolerate it? No, he wrote them, continuously condemning their actions and trying to change their behaviors. Anyone who truly believes something, for example that abortion is murder, would be wrong to stand by and do nothing. Anyone who tolerates what many priests have done to children, is wrong. If someone thinks that every abortion is a murder, they have to take a position, they should act.
As far as Christians imposing laws on the United STates, explain to me how. Hasn't abortion been legal since Roe v. Wade? Why is it wrong for those who oppose this to work to overturn it, as long as they do it legally and Constitutionally? Is it that you are intolerant of their views, and condemn any action they take? By the way, being pro-life and protecting marriage are not |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 14:56:20 [Permalink]
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WOOPS! I thought that I had done that quotation thing correctly, but it appears that i messed it up again. I'll preview it next time. I apologize in advance for the headache I caused (from both the formatting and the content). I'll get it right eventually, my post is after the.
quote:
I do know how to use it!
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
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