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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2001 : 23:14:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
I voted that aliens existed but would not ever visit Earth. The distances are tremendous, and living in space is hazardous for your health.
I am one of those obnoxious people who believe that robots should be used exclusively for studying and visiting the nearer portions of *The Galaxy* (a/k/a *The Milky Way*)..."
ljbrs   
Well, here are some thoughts. Yes to robots! Tough, self repairing robots that can go vast distances at very high speeds. (Notn "warp speed.") Maybe 20 years to Alpha Centauri, then only 4 years for a singal back to Earth. So a lot of independent computer brains for the robot to decide what to investigate.
If there had been a slightly different version of the option along the lines of: “I don't know, but I do care,” that would have filled the bill for me. (-; I went with aliens exist but haven't been to Earth. UFOs? No way. I've traveled all over the world and am an amateur astronomy fan. (Keeps looking up.) I've seen a lot of strange things in the skies. (ALL can be explained.) Millions of people have cameras. Not one convincing UFO photo, etc…etc…no evidence anywhere. On the other hand, the fact that aliens have not appeared doesn't mean they won't show up for the first time tomorrow!
Yes, it would be incredibly hard given the vast distances, but what if they are so AlIeN that they could eventually do it in ways we don't understand? They were never here...until...just...now.
Nevertheless, I find it interesting, exciting and in another way that I'll explain below, strangely depressing that the concept of picking up an alien signal seems to mirror our technology and society rather than nature. What I mean is this:
Early radio pioneers wonder about signals from Mars, and attempt to hear something. Their discoveries mirror Lowell's visual misinterpretations of “canals.” Later, Carl Sagan, Frank Drake, Jill Tarter and other SETI pioneers conceive of alien signals possibly being picked up at an optimum frequency based on hydrogen. Seems like a good idea. Drake proposes his equation, another good place to start.
As the personal computer and the Internet develop, Carl Sagan writes “Contact” wherein an alien signal is, in a sense, akin to a set of instructions. Sagan and others proposed alien signals constructed like websites. The signal is a series of mathematical clues, leading to instructions. The instructions are an interactive program. The aliens are temporal creatures like us, and realize that they may not actually be around when the signal is received. Instead, they offer an interactive message. In Sagan's book, the message leads to instructions on how to build a machine to transport us to other worlds via a wormhole.
Now, imagine back in 1929, Marconi or somebody gets a message that leads to advanced mathematics, that in turn leads to plastics, diodes, transistors (remember those?) and even computer chips and a hard drive. The message tells 1929 people how to build a personal computer. Something they have no concept of. Then the message instructs them how to download it, and >poof!< a self-contain interactive program is created. But no one has thought of this until after the PC got going. (Why would they?) But they should try to think that way. That's my point. So the depressing thought occurs that maybe because our methods only mirror us, that if they are out there, we are not picking up their methods. They're too far away. Or we just are not second guessing them well enough.
Finally, there's the whole idea that "life" is a different thing from "alien life with which w |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2001 : 23:31:35 [Permalink]
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Nice post, Chippewa. I hadn't ever thought about the effect of culture and technology on the way we listen for messages, except in the simplest sense of available technology. Interesting. Thanks.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Nenya
New Member
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 01:08:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
If there had been a slightly different version of the option along the lines of: “I don't know, but I do care,” that would have filled the bill for me.
That's what I would have voted for, too. I don't know if aliens exist, but I do care whether they do or not. I don't particularly expect to find out in my lifetime that they do exist (can't really prove they don't, as it's proving a negative), but I think it would be incredibly exciting if we did hear from them. C'mon, you gotta admit it'd be earthshatteringly important when & if it happened, right?
quote:
So the depressing thought occurs that maybe because our methods only mirror us, that if they are out there, we are not picking up their methods.
Have thought of this before, and as you say it is quite depressing. Just like one of my pet peeves is aliens in movies who look very humanoid or earth-animal-like. OK, because of good special F/X we don't get the space-man who looks just like a human in too many movies now, but most sci-fi movies make aliens that look like things we've already seen, only with greenish skin or more eyes or 10 appendages. If there are aliens out there, who knows how "alien" they really are? Maybe they're more like Douglas Adams' character who was an intelligent shade of the colour blue. ____________________________________
If you set up an endomorphic relation between an n-dimensional manifold of genus m and the Riemannian hypersphere thus described, then...the orthogonal eigenvector space must preserve energy conservation. --Ben Benoy
Edited by - Nenya on 09/07/2001 01:16:13 |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2001 : 08:57:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
In the 1970s astronomers Frank Drake and Carl Sagan devised a method, now called the Drake Equation, for estimating the number of advanced civilizations that might be present in our galaxy. In 1974, Sagan used the method to estimate that a million advanced civilizations might exist in the Milky Way galaxy alone. However, many discoveries in both astronomy and geology have been made since Sagan did that estimate, and these lead to a more pessimistic conclusion. ---John G. Cramer --- The Rare Earth Hypothesis
The failure of SETI to receive any unusual transmissions from the Milky Way Galaxy has definitely led to a more ‘pessimistic conclusion'. Just a few examples; Without the planet Jupiter, at 300 times more massive than earth, which acts as a sponge to absorb comets and asteroids that would have collided with the Earth and completely sterilized it. The large gravitational pull and close, but not too close, proximity of Jupiter has extended the lifetime of planet earth or its ‘time window'. Also without a large Moon, the gravitational effects of Jupiter and the Sun would have caused the Earth's tilt to wander chaotically over a wide range, producing enormous changes in climate and a hostile environment for the development of complex life.
Despite the 500 billion stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, with possibly 50 billion similar to our sun, and a possible 5 billion Earth like planets orbiting those suns. It is very possible, we may be the only intelligence in the Milky Way Galaxy, for now that is. 
Edited by - marvin on 09/07/2001 13:20:40 |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 01:08:15 [Permalink]
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Well, considering what we see has taken a few years(or way more) to get here, I say that we may be the only intelligent life out there, as we see it currently. But, of course, we ain't gonna ever find out otherwise until we get our lazy asses out there.
But I digress...
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 13:40:06 [Permalink]
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marvin: (On the unlikelihood of Earthlike planets with large moon and a Jovian comet-shield):
You're absolutely right that the circumstances which produced Earth may be very rare in the Universe. But I tend to think that we will be surprised by the variety of planetary systems which can harbor life. I'd guess that an ice-covered ocean world with a tidally heated core might do, for instance, but the my real point is that when we go a-rambling even in our own system we find stuff we never imagined. Nobody expected Io! There was a bit of a scramble to explain how gas giants could end up orbiting so close to a star, too, as I recall. (And no one expects...the Spanish Inquisition!) The Universe keeps surprising us with new worlds, and I expect that it will surprise us in the matter of suitable niches for life as well.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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bjones
Skeptic Friend
Australia
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 21:10:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
In the 1970s astronomers Frank Drake and Carl Sagan devised a method, now called the Drake Equation, for estimating the number of advanced civilizations that might be present in our galaxy. In 1974, Sagan used the method to estimate that a million advanced civilizations might exist in the Milky Way galaxy alone. However, many discoveries in both astronomy and geology have been made since Sagan did that estimate, and these lead to a more pessimistic conclusion. ---John G. Cramer --- The Rare Earth Hypothesis
Yes I agree with those more pessimistic conclusions and I grant it there may well be problems concerning the conditions on Earth that lead to the emergence on intelligent life and the possibility life being repeated elsewhere in the observable universe, by random chance. As such I have a very pessimistic outlook on any future prospects of getting in contact the extraterrestrials. I do think the burden of proof will have to be placed on both believers and disbelievers.
I am one of the believers who feel although is is highly improbable that intelligent civilizations can exist elsewhere in the universe, but that I am referring to the observable universe. But there is a loop hole around this problem. the inflationary cosmos http://www.sciam.com/specialissues/0398cosmos/0398linde.html With the inflationary cosmos the universe as we observe it exponentially slim fraction of it true size. We are just observing it as one of its comparatively minute cosmic bubbles and the true picture is much vaster. So there probably is an intelligent civilization lurking out there in a cosmic bubble trillions of peteparsecs away. I also eliminates the need for Divine intervention or miracles, as in the inflationary cosmos we very easily emerge merely by random chance. There may even be Earths in this inflationary cosmos that are virtually indistinguishable from ours.
It is a universe full of every possible accident, with everything created by random chance alone that sound to me as being a lot more plausible than God.
B b
Remember: when you die you philosophy dies with you.
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Hat Monster
New Member
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2001 : 19:41:48 [Permalink]
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Here's my personal view on extraterrestrial life:
Life on Earth formed pretty much as soon as it was possible for it to form, as soon as the conditions calmed down a bit and very early in the planet's existance. This is taken by me to believe that there is an extremely good chance that a suitable planet will indeed form life about 80% of the time. The first two billion years of life's existance were limited to single celled organisms that were extremely hardy. They had to be, the Earth was under quite a barrage of asteroid and comet impacts. As soon as the impacts stopped, it was the start of the Cambrian and things started being able to evolve into more complex (and so less resilient) forms.
Planets like Earth are unlikely to be uncommon. The extrasolar planets we're currently discovering are strange because they're all we can discover with today's technology so they can be disregarded as being typical. A star without a family of smaller rocky planets is likely to be the exception rather than the rule, simply because rocky planets are a natural byproduct of a star forming nebula after the star has formed. Lighter elements are usually blown away by the solar wind (pretty vicious with a new born or a protostar), leaving the silicon, oxygen, carbon, iron, etc. closer in. That eventually gives us our Earths and Mars (how do you pluralify Mars?!?!?), both of which would be capable of supporting life at the right distance.
We've already seen that if life can form then it probably will form and once it's formed then there is no getting rid of it. So all we have to do is get it formed once on our planet and we're stuck with it.
Many believe that intelligence is a natural outcome of evolution. Human evolution has probably stopped or slowed now thanks to hospitals and other treatments allowing bad genes to reproduce rather than die. So we can say that intelligence it the final outcome of evolution and it takes around three billion years to evolve. That's one hell of a long time. The mould on week-old bread would evolve intelligence in less than that time.
We're by no means special, our sun is one of a very common type and our solar system is also probably not atypical.
Where are the aliens then?
Well, our sun was born pretty much as soon as it was possible for a G2IV yellow dwarf to form and have the necessary heavy elements in it's formation nebula to form a system of rocky planets. If it had formed earlier, then it's nebula would not have been as enriched by supernovae with the heavy elements. So that would mean that intelligent life, assuming it evolves at around the same rate as we have, would be not too different from our technological level, possibly plus or minus five thousand years.
Five thousand years ago, we were using similar technologies to what we are today. Wheels. Farms. Houses. Roads. They just got a bit more evolved and specialized.
In five thousand years time we will probably still be using wheels, farms, houses and roads. It's the civilizations that are hundreds of thousands of years older than us that will have the really big breakthroughs. Once they're free of things like religion and capitalism and they're all working together for the future of their species rather than more individualistic persuits, they'll progress at a much faster rate. After all, what stops science more than lack of funding?
The aliens aren't here because they're probably sat on their internet wondering where the hell WE are and wondering why our flying saucers aren't making contact with their governments.
H@ |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2001 : 00:27:47 [Permalink]
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If a race of intelligent extraterrestials is out there, they are probably searching the galaxy/universe for other intelligent species.
Why would they ever come to earth???
"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2001 : 10:09:01 [Permalink]
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There have been many great civilizations with very intelligent human beings on this earth, long before technology has made it possible for space travel. The Romans did not have radio and, therefore, could not have sent or retrieved signals from space. There may be many highly intelligent species who have yet to become scientific. After all, religions have a way of putting a damper on anything scientific appearing to challenge its authority.
Humans have only had the capability for space travel for a short length of time. Communication by radio has been possible for a very short time span. The universe is vast. To think that there is no other possible intelligent life in the universe would be a mistake. Do we only think of space travel as being the signs of intelligence. Now, that is a bit presumptuous. Was Mozart intelligent? Was Beethoven intelligent? Come, now, really...
ljbrs 
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Hat Monster
New Member
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2001 : 15:50:47 [Permalink]
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Damn it! Press that button ONCE!!!
Very valid point raised though: Religion.
Religion is a necessary byproduct of an intelligent species, let me explain.
Religion comes from the inherent 'need to know'. It explains that which at the time cannot be explained. This same 'need to know' also brings about science and technology.
Should the species have the same selfishness we do, then religion will identify science as a threat and attempt to destroy it. Eventually, either religion or science will win across. I'd put my bets on science, but organized ignorance is very powerful.
If religion succeeds, then our hypothetical species will never progress beyond the dark ages. However: the 'need to know' that formed religion will eventually destroy it. Discoveries will be made. Technology will be made. Unless the deities have a very strong grip, then eventually science will always win out since religion will be proven wrong.
H@ |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 09:55:10 [Permalink]
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You left out another possible answer which would be my choice. The existance of alien life forms is highly probable, and they have not visited Earth.
Adam
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 21:59:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
You left out another possible answer which would be my choice. The existance of alien life forms is highly probable, and they have not visited Earth.
Adam
In the newest issue of Scientific American the interesting cover story concerns hypothetical zones within our galaxy that would be less dangerous to life. Too close in towards the core, (and inside Globular clusters,) the radiation, nova and supernova explosions, and gamma ray burst danger is too high for life. Further out from where we are, not enough metals in the stars to produce solar systems with terrestrial planets like ours. (Mind you, this is an hypothesis that has not been proven.) The conclusion of the authors is that intelligent life in our galaxy is not impossible, but would be very rare. Maybe each galaxy has two or three advanced "civilizations" at any given "time?" (But we're still not sure.)
One thing is sure. We have Beethoven! Da da da daaaaaah! (-:
Chip
"I'd never join an organization that would have a man like me as a member." |
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Grand Nubian
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2001 : 03:52:30 [Permalink]
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I voted that god is an alien and we are his son's science project. The son's bully friends are the other gods. That's why the bible is so contradictory, since there actually are more than one.
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2001 : 16:36:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
I voted that god is an alien and we are his son's science project. The son's bully friends are the other gods. That's why the bible is so contradictory, since there actually are more than one.
LOL! Nice.
-me. |
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