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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 11/19/2004 : 09:05:23
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What do you think is the chance of implementing a successful democracy in the country of Iraq? 0 to 100%
Successful, meaning, having the entire country participate in an election process and majority of people submit to the results and live under the newly elected regime in peace.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
Edited by - Doomar on 11/19/2004 09:37:39
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2004 : 09:27:08 [Permalink]
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| Is there anyone trying to implement a democracy in Iraq? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2004 : 17:37:03 [Permalink]
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I think the chance is 0%.
It didn't even happen in USA. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2004 : 20:26:39 [Permalink]
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| The question is: Can the Iraqis eventually have a basically Middle-Eastern-Islamic-Democratic regime? (Because they are not going to have a secular Western style democracy.) Not after all the American military destruction and damage to their mosques and cities, coupled with the growing turmoil between Moslem religious groups in Iraq. Can they achieve an "Islamic government" that is (by their standards) "democratic" and doesn't degenerate to the immoral level of the Taliban? |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2004 : 20:56:45 [Permalink]
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Agreeing with Doc and Chip. There are simply too many factions in Iraq who all but hate each other. And all of those factions hate the Kurds. Toss religion into the mix and you have a deadly batter. The one thing they will all have in common will be a hatred of us.
I think that if left to their own devices, after a ghastly civil war, they would end up with a theocracy similar to Iran's or a Saddam-style dictatorship.
Will there be an election in January? I can't say for sure, but I think there will be, of sorts. An election in Iraq is important to our alledged leaders who, think they're spreading democracy. But I further think that it will fail for a lack of voters. Who wants to get shot or bombed by insurgent lunatics just to cast a ballot that means virtually nothing as long as we have troops in country?
I wish I had a time machine. One hundred years from now, I would love to read the history of the beginning of the twenty-first century.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/19/2004 21:00:28 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2004 : 22:18:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
What do you think is the chance of implementing a successful democracy in the country of Iraq? 0 to 100%
Successful, meaning, having the entire country participate in an election process and majority of people submit to the results and live under the newly elected regime in peace.
Missing in your equation is time. Will Iraw be as democratic as your typical Western European nation in January? Hardly. What about in 10 years? Maybe. In a hundred years? Who the fuck knows?!?! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2004 : 22:47:28 [Permalink]
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| I think that "vote-day" in January in Iraq is going to be a bloody day. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2004 : 06:54:58 [Permalink]
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| Do they even want a democracy brought to them by a bunch of mad blood-thirsty foreigners? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2004 : 09:51:14 [Permalink]
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Cuniformist said: Missing in your equation is time. Will Iraw be as democratic as your typical Western European nation in January?
Your best guess and opinion. Time according to whatever you think. Say in 5 years. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 11/20/2004 09:52:03 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2004 : 15:01:25 [Permalink]
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In five years, who can say?
The country was past boiling point but kept under pressure by Saddam Hussein. Now that the lid is off, it's instantly boiling. According to the Geneva Convention, the invading and occupying force is responsible for keeping security, law and order. USA have failed miserably in that respect. Sending 5000 more troops is laughable. It's only a percent of what is needed to restore law and order in Iraq.
Reconstruction work is taking too much time. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 13:09:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
In five years, who can say?
The country was past boiling point but kept under pressure by Saddam Hussein. Now that the lid is off, it's instantly boiling. According to the Geneva Convention, the invading and occupying force is responsible for keeping security, law and order. USA have failed miserably in that respect. Sending 5000 more troops is laughable. It's only a percent of what is needed to restore law and order in Iraq.
Reconstruction work is taking too much time.
Are our troops causing this "boiling over" by their very presence? More of them could mean a further deterioration perhaps, so maybe we should rethink the matter. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 17:08:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Are our troops causing this "boiling over" by their very presence? More of them could mean a further deterioration perhaps, so maybe we should rethink the matter.
I meant that it was like a pressure-boiler. Under high pressure the boiling temperature of water increase from 100°C to 120°C or more. Like in Iraq, Saddam Hussein was using excessive force and terror to keep it from boiling. Now that Saddam Hussein have been removed, the bottled up dissent and civil disorder explodes.
US troops need to put the lit back on and slowly let the temperature and pressure down.
USA tried Instant Market Economy in Russia after the break-up of Soviet Union, and it failed miserably. The power-vacuum that was created in Russia got filled quickly by a Russian Mafia.
Today, President Putin is one of the absolutely wealthiest men in Russia, and the legislation he's forcing in Russia makes it look more and more like it's moving toward a new dictatorship, a Plutocracy instead of democracy.
USA is going to fail in creating a democracy in Iraq if they are going to try the Instant Democracy method. It will create yet another power-vacuum, and this time it's going to get filled with a religious version of the mafia, resulting in a theocracy in the end.
The Iraqi people need to be guided slowly back to the civilised world, not rushed. The social infrastructure needs to work before USA pulls out. Otherwise, fanatical religious groups will take control, just like Hamas is doing in Palestine. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/21/2004 17:10:21 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 23:38:28 [Permalink]
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The only possible result, other than the US killing off a couple million Iraq's, is a theocracy in Iraq. Even if we stay and set up elections for the next 10 years, the religious leaders in the area will obtain power by telling their followers who to vote for.
Unless Iraq can produce a couple of Jeffersons and Paines and Washingtons.... they are gonna be a theocracy and there is nothing we can do about it. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2004 : 04:12:11 [Permalink]
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| I'd say history is a good guide. Most of the so called democracies the US has 'installed' obviously weren't democracies. This administration isn't interested in a democracy here, let alone one in Iraq. The Bush team wants a capitalist friendly oil market government that they can do business as usual with. That's all Iraq will be able to get whether they have elections or not, until Bush is out of the US government or we are out of Iraq. |
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