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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
 Posted - 11/22/2004 : 19:41:28
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Just Curious if any other Libertarians are here besides myself? And if so, how do you think we should start preparing for 2008.
take care,
tk
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 06:58:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
Just Curious if any other Libertarians are here besides myself? And if so, how do you think we should start preparing for 2008.
take care,
tk
I'm an independant with Libertarian leanings. Do I count?
I think for 2008, the Libertarian party should focus more on local elections with good candidates to build a grassroots effort. Right now, the Libertarians have not engaged the general public. They need to get their message out there. Of course, this will take mondo loads of cash. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 07:14:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by tkster
Just Curious if any other Libertarians are here besides myself? And if so, how do you think we should start preparing for 2008.
take care,
tk
I'm an independant with Libertarian leanings. Do I count?
I think for 2008, the Libertarian party should focus more on local elections with good candidates to build a grassroots effort. Right now, the Libertarians have not engaged the general public. They need to get their message out there. Of course, this will take mondo loads of cash.
All too true. It's tough for any third party. I agree that the time to start is now and work hard for local offices. Get the party known. I'd give the same advice to the Greens.
I'm a somewhat left-leaning Independant, or I was until Bush sleezed his way into office. Now I am a rabid, flaming, tree-hugging, facsist-hating liberal.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 07:27:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
Just Curious if any other Libertarians are here besides myself? And if so, how do you think we should start preparing for 2008.
Hey tkster. No, I'm not a Libertarian, and I'm not a particular fan of much of the party's platform. Still, I have some suggestions for 2008: forget it. For now at least.
As has been shown, these's simply no way in our present political climate for a third party to win in a national election. And besides some very rare examples, even on the state-wide scene, elections are generally limited to contests between Democrats and Republicans.
My feeling is that in order for third party candidates (Libertarians, Greens, the Constituion Party, or even LaRouche-- OK, not LaRouche) to make it, they're going to have to start locally. It has to start with a member of a third party getting on a city counsel, or becoming mayor. If popular, she or he can try for a state-wide position, e.g. its upper or lower house. From there, the party might have enough visibility and support to try for higher state-wide office.
It would have to happen in a state the already leans in that direction-- i.e. Libertarians in a hard-core 'Red State' like Oklahoma, or Greens in a hard-core 'Blue State' like Vermont.
Since you're in Texas, I'd work on trying to find the local Libertarian group in Lubbock and see about gearing up a candidate for local office.
Good luck! |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 11/24/2004 06:19:28 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 07:38:11 [Permalink]
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| Sorry, foreigner kid here. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 08:52:05 [Permalink]
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I am reminded of Bernie Sanders, of Vermont (a state I still dearly love). In the late '80s, he ran for Mayor of the city of Burlington as a Socialist, and won. Today, he is an Independent, socialism being unacceptable, in the House, where he has been for many years.
I recall the jokes about the 'People's Republic of Burlington.' Doonsbury did a couple.
It can be done, but it'll take a lot of hard work.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/23/2004 08:53:14 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 10:08:19 [Permalink]
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| I think 'third' parties need to stop spending their money on running candidates, and start spending their money on changing the way people are elected in the U.S. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 12:38:47 [Permalink]
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Athough I'm not a libertarian (not even an American for that matter) I would agree with what has been said above. I think a lot of power is in the local politics. In the Netherlands, the extreme right had a seat in parlement some 12 years back or something. However, their local performance was so bad that they lost those seats quite quicly in the following elections (given, their countrywide politics was pretty pathethic to).
Another party actually started of in the local politics and still has a good following there. This also made their party accepted in countrywide politics (although they totally blew it there). |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 01:04:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hey tkster. No, I'm not a Libertarian, and I'm not a particular fan of much of the party's platform. Still, I have some suggestions for 2008: forget it. For now at least.
I'm sort-of a Libertarian (my personal political opinions don't fit neatly into any one, or even two or three, political party's positions).
At the moment, and until the US can decide to do away with the electoral college, I think that all the smaller parties (Libertarian, Green, Naderites, ect...) that are generally liberal with regard to domestic policies, and who come into conflict with the religious-right on so many issues.... should all band together and support the Dems in 2008. It's either that or sit back as the republican party, controlled by the evangelicals, puts another president in office who thinks the same way the current shrub thinks.
A concerted effort by all the small parties to abolish the electoral college would also be a good thing. The electorate system unsures that the two-party system thrives and that no viable third party can gain offices. Dems and Republicans both want the system to stay just like it is, but I think it's responsible for the extreme power that these parties have now.
So, in order of priority, this is what I would say:
1. Whatever it takes to ensure that a republican doesn't get elected in 2008. (even if it goes against the short term goals of some of the smaller parties)
2. Try to build support for the removal of the electoral college. This isn't something that will be easily achieved, but I think it would be worth working towards.
3. Whatever it takes to swing the senate and house majorities away from the republicans.
All that, even if it means voting and supporting the "most liberal" democrat out there. The goals of smaller government, fiscal responsibility, and other planks in the Libertarian platform can be put on the backburner if need be in order to remove control of the government from people who believe that the "jury is still out" on evolution, and that place unevidenced beliefs above empirical evidence when making policy decisions.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 06:14:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I'm sort-of a Libertarian (my personal political opinions don't fit neatly into any one, or even two or three, political party's positions).
Same here. For those who are interested, they have "The World's Smallest Political Quiz" http://www.lp.org/quiz/ to help you see your Libertarian leanings. (You can also access it by clicking on Libertarian in Cuneiformist's post earlier in this thread.)
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
1. Whatever it takes to ensure that a republican doesn't get elected in 2008. (even if it goes against the short term goals of some of the smaller parties)
I second that!
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 06:44:54 [Permalink]
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Gawd, not the Libertarians again. You guys are even more wacky than the neo-cons.
America will never elect a party as radical as the Libertarians. They just won't. Hell, even mainstream liberals were painted as dangerous by the neo-cons this past election. Karl Rove would make mincemeat out of a Libertarian.
You're wasting your time, money, and energy tilting at windmills. My suggestion: back viable candidates, Dem or GOP, that most closely align with what you believe. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 07:57:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Gawd, not the Libertarians again. You guys are even more wacky than the neo-cons.
America will never elect a party as radical as the Libertarians. They just won't. Hell, even mainstream liberals were painted as dangerous by the neo-cons this past election. Karl Rove would make mincemeat out of a Libertarian.
True-- the Libertarian stance-- even if it makes sense-- on the way Bush has carried out his "war on terror" would make any Libertarian very vulnerable to the RNC attack-and-spin machine.
However, their stance on taxes-- as disturbing to me as it is-- is lock and step with what Bush wants to do.
But again, in my view worrying about the RNC attack dogs is something for the far off future for the Libertarians as for any third party. Best is to work locally to build support and to hone policies so that they actually work in real life, rather than immediately aim for the Presidency-- something that will never work as it stands now. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 08:36:42 [Permalink]
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| If you manage to educate the public, teach them to think critically, most of them will realise that voting republican is against their best interest. Then more people will change to libertarian (and democrats). |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 10:14:48 [Permalink]
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| My favorite scenario is to let the Libertarians win. Then, after a period of getting tired of stepping over dead people on the street for lack of a social net and access to any kind of healthcare, we get a belly full of that and go back to a more empathetic system of government... On the other hand, I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread since it is possible that I am not a Libertarian... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 14:29:30 [Permalink]
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Kil not a Libertarian? Really? hehe
Anyway.... if this country ever wants to experience a true political discourse, and elect to president a candidate that the majority of the people WANT elected (not elect one because there are only 2 choices and you rather shoot your dog than vote for one of them, even though you don't really like the other all that much), then the electoral college has to go. Small states rights are still protected by the Senate, and the actual will of the people would decide who our leader is.
I say that I'm sort-of libertarian because I'm 100% in favor of protecting the first 10 ammendments to the Constitution. Those were put in place to protect people and the states FROM the federal government, and both of the big parties have been chipping away at them for a long time to increase the power of the fed gov.
But yes, libertarians and I don't agree on many social issues (specifically the use of the federal government in creating/directing social programs). I'm pretty liberal/democrat on most of those.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 04:36:07 [Permalink]
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Hey tkster,
You know where I stand on Libertarians from the From Where I Stand forum. The Platform is impractical and too extreme. You can always say you want less government, but I doubt most claimed Libertarians would really like the world they wish for.
Welcome to TSFN. I've been avoiding the gloating Bushies over on FWIS and have been hiding out over here with more like minded folks. The election outcome was way too depressing and I needed a break. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 11/25/2004 04:46:16 |
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