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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2004 : 14:23:11
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A controversial subject if ever there was one. Now, it's one thing for an adult to create a living will directing that his or her life not be prolonged under certain circumstances. I have one myself. It's still another for an adult to seek assistance in ending his or her life as the result of incurable illness or injury.
However, in the Netherlands - where euthanasia is now permitted - not only are guidelines being drafted for "mercy killings" with respect to newborns, but it seems they have already begun...
http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory.asp?cat=news&referrer=welcome&id=D86MC5NO0_story.xml
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Edited by - Wendy on 11/30/2004 14:24:17
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2004 : 14:27:32 [Permalink]
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Really they are only doing it to babies who are gonna die in a week or two and are in terrible pain.....so far.
POPE DEMANDS BABIES MUST SUFFER 40 DAYS AND NIGHTS IN AN INCUBATOR...IN THE DESERT. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2004 : 07:33:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
However, in the Netherlands - where euthanasia is now permitted - not only are guidelines being drafted for "mercy killings" with respect to newborns, but it seems they have already begun...
http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory.asp?cat=news&referrer=welcome&id=D86MC5NO0_story.xml
After hours of searching i have been unable to come up with an additional source for the claim that euthanasia on newborns is being performed in the Netherlands. I would also consider it highly unlikely i myself would have missed such a claim in the news. The online archives of the newspapers i subscribe to make no mention of this activity.
However, the Academic Hospital of Groningen has indeed issued a press-release stating they have developed a protocol for performing euthanasia on newborns. This protocol requires a number of conditions to be met:
1) Unbearable suffering that cannot be relieved by any other means.
2) No chance of improvement of the situation.
3) The entire medical team must approve of this action.
4) The parents or persons who have custody of the child must approve.
5) Two or more outside doctors must approve.
Next to these conditions the standard requirements for euthanasia apply, such as restrictions on the method of death, the doctor who performs the procedure and the communication to and approcal by the public prosecutor.
The law acknowledges no right to euthanasia and doctors are by no means required to perform the procedure if they dissaprove.
The Groningen-protocol is not in effect. According to the department of Justice currently any reported case of euthanasia on newborns or any persons classified as "wilsonbekwaam" (unable to make rational decisions for themselves such as newborns, people with Down syndrome, Alzheimer patients etc.) will be treated as murder.
Several years ago the Wall Street Journal ran an article on alleged unvoluntary euthanasia in the Netherlands. It has been widely discredited as "nonsense" here. |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2004 : 08:01:38 [Permalink]
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I figured as much, Plyss. Unfortunatly, our news media, given the choice between sensational, border-line bullshit and a carefully researched, factual story, will go for the former every time.
I was hoping someone from the Netherlands would comment on it. Thanks.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2004 : 12:16:57 [Permalink]
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Thank you, Plyss. Your response addresses many of the concerns I had in mind when I made the post. Here are several other articles with references:
http://www.hrtl.org/hollandabuse.htm
http://www.chninternational.com/chninfo3.htm
http://www.pregnantpause.org/euth/nethhist.htm
I have listed the best (IMO) source first. There are others, though as you might imagine many border on ranting from the pulpit, and a few cross the line.
Certainly euthanizing babies makes for a sensational headline sure to sell news. Still, I see real potential for abuse here - doctors motivated to keep costs down, parents who would prefer not to raise a handicapped child. It's a thought provoking issue.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2004 : 13:31:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
Still, I see real potential for abuse here - doctors motivated to keep costs down, parents who would prefer not to raise a handicapped child. It's a thought provoking issue.
All citizens of the Netherlands are fully insured under the social security system for treatment of life-threatening medical situations, therefor it seems unlikely someone would choose to kill a patient to save a few bucks.
As a general rule children whose parents are uncapable of caring for them (either physically or emotionally) will be placed in nursing homes where they are taken care of by trained professionals.
Nevertheless, it's a thought-provoking issue indeed.
I'm still looking into that first website as i agree it's the best anti-euthanasia site i've seen sofar. I do believe the system will be manipulated in isolated cases, however i remain unconvined this happens at the scale mentioned here. Imagine the conspiracy involved to kill thousands of patients against their will without anyone ever speaking up.
One of the reasons the Dutch government decided to regulate this issue was because it was fairly obvious the phenomenon of euthanasia was real and it was deemed prefereable to impose a quality control on it rather then let it occur underground. I would guess it's likely that the practice of euthanasia is not restricted to the Netherlands but occurs elsewhere too.
Incidentally, some information from the Dutch government on euthansia can be found here.
Edited to add:
That third site seems factually rather inaccurate. Euthanasia on adult patients was legal as of the 1st of april 2002, not 1973. I'm still trying to find where the 11.800 number comes from. |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
| Edited by - Plyss on 12/01/2004 13:47:28 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2004 : 19:00:34 [Permalink]
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I hadn't noticed the news yet either. That doesn't surprise me however. The papers are still quite full on some other national problems, so this is forced to the background. Especially because euthanasia is already legalized so for us the issue isn't as big as it is in other countries.
What I would actually be interested in is a comparison of performed voluntary and involuntary euthanasia in different countries. From what I have read till now certainly not absent in other countries. A comparison of estimates of performed euthanasia in different countries would be interesting to estimate the effect of regulation, but is hard to come by. If I have the time I might do some research on it tomorrow. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 06:32:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Plyss, the head of the children's clinic at Groningen was interviewed on American National Public Radio this morning, and stated that four newborns with severe spina bifida had, indeed, been euthanized in 2004. You can listen to the interview here.
Interesting interview. As of yet i still haven't seen coverage of this in any of the local media (though there was a special on an opinion show on the Groningen protocol last november).
I think there may be some equivocation going on here.
Inducing death in infants by increasing doses of painkillers is not typically considered euthanasia. There's a bit of a grey area there about when you can still administer morphine when there is a risk that it will kill your patients. As of yet this is allowed when the purpose is to remove pain from the patient, but no longer allowed when the intent is to induce death in the same patient, even when the administered dosis is exactly the same. From what i've read sofar administration of potentially lethal amounts of painkillers can be performed at the discretion of the doctor if the patient is incapable of communicating his wishes.
The Groningen doctors do not mention though how death was induced in their patients (and they are not allowed by law to pass on information about specific patients to the general media).
There doesn't seem to be a lot of jurisprudence in this area as only around 6 doctors per year are charged with violating the euthanasia protocol outof several thousand cases per year. Only one lawsuit was filed regarding the euthanasia of a baby, in 1994. The performing doctor was found quilty, but not punished by the judge.
I'm going to keep track of this. The Groningen doctors indicated that they published their protocol in order to force a discussion on the subject, so it seems likely there will be newscoverage in the upcoming time. |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 08:45:23 [Permalink]
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Here is an excellent "jumping off point" for anyone interested in the subject:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/euthanasia
It is a detailed definition of euthanasia, followed by the types of euthanasia, arguments both for and against, as well as the legislation and political movements of Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands, and the United States.
There are also several external links, articles, and even a reference to classical literature.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 12:01:14 [Permalink]
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Not off topic but pretty much off-the-wall, is that many si-fi novels deal with not only euthanaisa but the encouraged, volentary suicide of healthy people due to population pressures. One that I read some years ago had a favorite place for the final jump, as it were, with a sign that said, "Think of it as Evolution in Action."
It might have been something that Larry Niven wrote, but I'm not sure.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 12:16:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
It might have been something that Larry Niven wrote, but I'm not sure.
Yep, it was. Oath of Fealty. Credit also to co-author, Jerry Pournelle. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 12:36:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
It might have been something that Larry Niven wrote, but I'm not sure.
Yep, it was. Oath of Fealty. Credit also to co-author, Jerry Pournelle.
Thank you!
Niven and Pournelle are a great writing team, although I haven't read either or both of them in a long time. Now I'm tempted to look up some of their more recent works.
The chilling part about it all is that sometimes si-fi, particularly the hard-core stuff, has a nasty habit of prediction.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2004 : 12:56:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Not off topic but pretty much off-the-wall, is that many si-fi novels deal with not only euthanaisa but the encouraged, volentary suicide of healthy people due to population pressures. One that I read some years ago had a favorite place for the final jump, as it were, with a sign that said, "Think of it as Evolution in Action."
It might have been something that Larry Niven wrote, but I'm not sure.
That actually gave me an idea... oh well, it won't be today I'll finish that homework-essay. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 03:51:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Not off topic but pretty much off-the-wall, is that many si-fi novels deal with not only euthanaisa but the encouraged, volentary suicide of healthy people due to population pressures.
It has appeard as a central theme in episodes of TV sci-fi series like Star Trek: The Next Generation, Stargate Atlantis, and Farscape. I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones that instantly comes to mind. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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