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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2004 : 18:12:06 [Permalink]
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Well my friend H. To be a Scientist you need proof. Do not fall into debunking where you atomatically think things that are extraordinary are shams or falsness.
Mental powers might not be needed to bend the spoon but that does not mean they can'y H. Let us leave Christ out of this unless you read my other post on one of the other topics
I have tons of common sense. |
Storm |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 18:19:12 [Permalink]
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Another though. Just because I believe and have knowledge that Ghosts and PSI exist does not mean I believe in all labeled Paranormal. I.E. Uri Gellar
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Storm |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 18:40:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Well my friend H. To be a Scientist you need proof. Do not fall into debunking where you atomatically think things that are extraordinary are shams or falsness.
Mental powers might not be needed to bend the spoon but that does not mean they can'y H. Let us leave Christ out of this unless you read my other post on one of the other topics
I have tons of common sense.
Let's be clear. I don't not automatically asume anything extraordinary is a sham or false. I do automatically assume that in all likelihood it is a sham or false. However, if sufficient evidence presents itself, I am willing to change my mind. Since Gellar has never provided that evidence, I hold to my original assumption.
It isn't a "trap." It's the way things work. If someone makes a claim, (ie. "I can bend spoons using only my mind"), then the onus is on them to prove their claim. I am not obligated to assume they can do it. I am only obligated to consider the evidence they have presented to support their claim. If they fail, then the claim doesn't stand. I don't have to disprove anything. I don't have to debunk anything.
That's the common sense component. If I want to sell you a bag of magic beans, I have to prove to you that the beans are really magic. You'd be an idiot if you bought them just because I told you so. You also wouldn't have to prove to me that they were not magic beans, because I'm the one making the claim.
So that's how it is with Geller. I'm just not buying what he's selling, and thus far he's only managed to come off looking like a common con man hawking lima beans. Do I have proof of his dishonesty? No. Do I need any? No.
If you fail to see that, then yes, you lack common sense.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 18:40:18 [Permalink]
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Then why are you arguing about Geller?
Scientists do not require proof, which is only available to mathematicians and logicians. Scientists require evidence in support of a proposition. The proposition in question is, "Geller uses mind power to bend spoons." Lacking any evidence in support of this proposition, and finding tons of support for the proposition "Geller uses hand power to bend spoons," including the fact that not hundreds but thousands of other spoon-benders do it manually (when nobody is looking), and what does common sense tell us?
That we should believe the one guy who claims to use mind power, but hasn't yet demonstrated it by not touching the spoon? That would be a very unusual "common sense." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:09:56 [Permalink]
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| Have you proved he bends the spoon with his hand or are you coming to that conclusion because he uses his hand or because of that lame blurry video? Maybe it is the hand that transmitted the power or the message the brain sends. So inessence he does not actually use his fingers but in holding the spoon the message can be transmitted. |
Storm |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:17:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Storm:
Maybe it is the hand that transmitted the power or the message the brain sends. So inessence he does not actually use his fingers but in holding the spoon the message can be transmitted.
Storm, Uri Geller is a con man and you are a con mans wet dream... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:29:40 [Permalink]
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| Nice Kil Nice. Why is it that when my thoughts or theories annoy or fustrate you you resort to cheap humor? Well Kil at least I am someones wet dream can't say much for. So Kil tell me what I said thar brings you to this revalation? |
Storm |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:29:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Kil wrote:
Storm, Uri Geller is a con man and you are a con mans wet dream...
Thanks a lot Kil. Now we'll get to hear Storm's theory of wet dreams being caused by the energy of a dead vampire psychic sasquatch from another dimension, or some such crap. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:42:57 [Permalink]
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Ya know I thought this was a pretty cool network. But with the cheap and rude comments that are directed towards me and my convictions I think maybe it is not. I am not here saying Saints are going to judge beeelzebub or whatever. I brought up serious threads. I thought it was obvious after we debated numerous times that you were interested . I guess I was wrong.
I thought for a long time on some of the angry degrading things you said about me. Rude, incomitent, mislead, no common sense.
I do not believe those things in fact I know them to be true |
Storm |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:47:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Have you proved he bends the spoon with his hand or are you coming to that conclusion because he uses his hand or because of that lame blurry video? Maybe it is the hand that transmitted the power or the message the brain sends. So inessence he does not actually use his fingers but in holding the spoon the message can be transmitted.
Ochamm's Razor yet again.
Given the available evidence, some sort of slight of hand is the simplest answer.
The evidence: Geller produces bent spoons.
Any semi-competent magician can easily do the same by various methods, none of which involves 'mental powers.'
Therefore, the most likely answer is that Geller is a fraud.
Remember the 2000 Olympics in Sidney? The globe they were lowering to kick it off, with great ceremony, got stuck due to a mechanical problem. Geller instantly claimed he caused it.
I won't go into the soccer team that all but lost it's ass when Geller became involved with it.
Actually, I admire the guy. He has made a tremendous success of fraud writ large and never been brought to book on it, in spite of many attempts.
I hope he's not reading these posts because he also has a taste for lawsuits, even though he loses most of them.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:50:52 [Permalink]
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Although filthy it is the most likely it might not be the truth
Let us not think of Occams Razor. We must move beyond. Plus this is not evidence. That it is most likely fraud. How scientific is that? Is is like sayinf it is most likely a ghost threw my slipper? What is the difference. |
Storm |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 19:57:17 [Permalink]
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| Because maybe Ricky the energy the brain sends is in the hand. Not he fingers but in the holding of the hand. Have you seen Uri Geller bend spoons? |
Storm |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 20:18:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Ya know I thought this was a pretty cool network. But with the cheap and rude comments that are directed towards me and my convictions I think maybe it is not. I am not here saying Saints are going to judge beeelzebub or whatever. I brought up serious threads. I thought it was obvious after we debated numerous times that you were interested . I guess I was wrong.
I thought for a long time on some of the angry degrading things you said about me. Rude, incomitent, mislead, no common sense.
I do not believe those things in fact I know them to be true
Storm, I don't think anyone's intention was ever to hurt your feelings, but many of those adjectives do apply to you. I mean, if you want to play devil's advocate and expound on wild and crazy theories, you can't expect at the same time to be commended on your rationality and common sense.
Personally, I think you need to come to a better understanding of your limitations. You're not stupid, but you are not a good critical thinker. I'm sure you're a good person and a good wife, but you make a poor scientist. You do take a great many things on faith. You don't have a proper understanding of what constitutes proof, or a clear understanding of what types of information pass as knowledge. You have difficulty structuring arguments in a linear and logic progresssion. There are things you need to work on.
But the point is, no one's trying to attack you personally. They are just trying to cue you in on where your thinking is faulty. We are all guilty of it at one time or another, so don't think we're picking on you. Obviously no one likes to think of themselves as gullible or credulous, but we all benefit when those traits are pointed out in ourselves, otherwise we would never be able to correct them. We all have things we need to work on.
Look, don't feel compelled to leave just yet. Sometimes frustration gets the better of all of us. You do start interesting threads. I'll give ya that much.  |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/09/2004 20:38:46 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 20:40:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Storm:
Nice Kil Nice. Why is it that when my thoughts or theories annoy or fustrate you you resort to cheap humor?
Your “theory's” neither annoy nor frustrate me. They amuse me. Since earlier on I made an attempt to discuss science and critical thinking when regarding paranormal claims with you in a serious way, in this tread, and you replied with a flip answer and that little winky icon, I have stopped taking you seriously as someone I could have a dialog with. You became just another woo woo to me. Interesting for entertainment value and also a little scary. Scary because there are so many like you. And while you are probably harmless, you are part of a movement that practically celebrates irrationality. I'm sure I would feel much more kindly toward you if I retailed in pyramid hats or crystals.
The idea that thousands of magicians can bend spoons in a way that looks exactly like what Uri Geller does without claiming any psychic powers, and your willingness to think up how Geller may be doing it psychically tells me that you have absolutely no wish to think critically about anything at all…
quote:
Storm:
Ya know I thought this was a pretty cool network. But with the cheap and rude comments that are directed towards me and my convictions I think maybe it is not. I am not here saying Saints are going to judge beeelzebub or whatever. I brought up serious threads. I thought it was obvious after we debated numerous times that you were interested . I guess I was wrong.
I thought for a long time on some of the angry degrading things you said about me. Rude, incomitent, mislead, no common sense.
I do not believe those things in fact I know them to be true.
I offered to have a serious discussion with you and you threw it back in my face. So pardon my sarcasm. Just think of it as a little winky icon…
Edited slightly. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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