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smokedoctor
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 21:12:24 [Permalink]
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Dude said, ". . . This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams, Second President of the United States. This quote is taken out of context, see background at www.eadshome.com/FoundersQuotesoutofContext.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 23:01:36 [Permalink]
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This is the sort of double-talk that drives me up a wall. How can Moses be understood to be saying anything other than exactly what he wrote: "all the cattle died." It's a pointless sentence if the intention was merely to say that only cattle that contracted a deadly plague died. That would be a redundant and unnecessary insertion. Well, the same guy in the next few sentences explains how many beasts were still left in Egypt, so do you expect people to think that Moses was a complete moron or to try to understand what the fellow really meant? It's only because of the translation that it seems strange to you, but none of the Jews think it was strange, cause they really understood what he meant. It's just you that don't, cause you're expecting to find some mistake instead of trying to understand what was really meant. These assumptions of the author refuting himself are absurd.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
Edited by - Doomar on 12/11/2004 23:26:08 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 23:22:58 [Permalink]
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I am against abortion, that's why I'm stuck in this conversation. Since you seem to think that god's killing of those kids was just, may I ask why exactly your are NOT pro-choice?
It is a good point. It seems unrighteous to us for God to have the children killed, too. But God is not unrighteous, so we simply don't understand it right off. Many seem to be quick to point out what seems to be an error in God's judgment, but is it an error, simply because we don't understand it? Let us consider that all human beings are going to die some day. There are no exceptions to this rule. God is the author of all life. He gives life and he takes it away. But physical life is not all that is involved in a human being's life...there is the after life...and a day of judgment...and the promise of eternal life. Without acknowledging these aspects that are also taught in the Scripture, one's view point will be shortsighted. Also, God is completely fair in his judgment. He is not excessive or late or early. He desires mercy. That is shown many times in the Old Testament, not just the New. God had his reasons for taking the lives of the young Amalekites, along with the old. You may not agree with Him, but it is not required that we do. When your last day comes you may not agree with nor want to give up your life, but that choice is not in your hands. It will happen regardless of how you or I or anyone else other than God feels about it. What is certain, is that God will be fair when he judges your life. There won't be any "evidence" or "testimony" that escapes Him. All will be known, all the cards will be on the table, so to speak. The fact that God is "all knowing" will come into play and that He possesses all wisdom, also. No one will be putting their hand up and saying, "Now, God, you're making a mistake". That just won't happen, as all the facts will be known and the judge of the earth will be completely fair. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 23:26:16 [Permalink]
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quote: This quote is taken out of context
Actually, I was aware of the context. But I see your point. Without the preceding and following sentences it can easily be misunderstood. I knew the quote was from a letter in which he was expressing frustration with various organized religious groups, and that his annoyance stemmed from many of them doing then what the religious right (with more success) is doing today. Insinuating themselves into government and trying to impose their version of morality/ethics/ect on others.
Maybe I'll change it to... quote: John Adams' biographer and the editor of his Works, his grandson Charles Francis Adams, wrote that "with the independent spirit which in early life had driven him from the ministry, [Adams rejected] the prominent doctrines of Calvinism, the trinity, the atonement and election. . . ." Moreover, church-state scholar Greg Hamilton says John Adams criticized the notion of Christ's divinity as an "awful blasphemy."
From this site.
My point was to illustrate that Adams ws not a christian, and that quote seemed to do the job. Adams was a unitarian, not a christian, and would be outraged at the political influence the religious right has gained in this country today.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n. The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 23:38:00 [Permalink]
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quote: It seems unrighteous to us for God to have the children killed, too. But God is not unrighteous, so we simply don't understand it right off.
What's to understand? Your "the LORD" kills children.
Have you always been insane?
Killing children is wrong. If your god does it, then your god is an evil god. If you worship a god who commits evil acts, then you are evil.
To say "god did it, therefore it's ok" is possibly the most moronic thing I have ever heard.
Are you actually processing the garbage you're souting? Are you aware of the fact that you are condoning the murder of children?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n. The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 00:10:03 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by R.Wreck The god of the OT just doesn't live up to the standards that one would reasonably expect from a being so smart and powerful that it could be responsible for the universe's very existence.
Now how is it that you think you have this great ability among men to judge the actions of God to be right or wrong? I disagree with your assertion and I think I am just as smart as you, but maybe not so sure of myself. This God that you say did not live up to "reasonable standards" somehow finds it in His heart to put up with yours and my foolishness every day of our lives and still is good to us, giving us food, shelter, clothes, friends, and countless blessings. What if we are just stupid in comparison to Him? I mean how many times did the children of Israel complain about how God was taking care of them even though they never lacked for food or water in their forty years of wandering in the wilderness? Their shoes never wore out in all those years. Their enemies did not prevail over them, they had shelter, food, water and God even spoke to them out of the mountain so they heard His voice and they saw His power and miracles first hand. Wow, these people should have been devoted followers, right? Wrong, many of them rebelled against God in spite of all His goodness to them, just like most of you are doing today. All of us have many blessings every day from God, but do we thank Him as we should? Do we acknowledge that all these good things in our lives are from Him, or do we take credit for everything? That good health you have, is it just luck? The good jobs some of you have, was it all your doing, or was some of it circumstances and chance totally out of your control? That education you got, was it all your doing, or did you receive a lot of help along the way like most of us? The wife or husband or children you have, are they some kind of curse on you, or a blessing from God. Did you merit their love, are you always good and kind to them? Can you honestly say everything you have comes by your own hand and your own power and ability? Why do I bring this up? God was for the Amalekites also. He gave them good things in their lives. They were one of the sons of Esau, the brother Jacob, who was called "Israel". They chose an evil path in life while God dealt with them for hundreds of years. He suffered with many generations of these people. Did he want to wipe them off the face of the earth? No. "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" saith the Lord. But, unlike all of us, God is the judge of the earth, not just some "good ole boy". The responsibility of dealing with wicked men falls upon him, especially when men fail to deal with the evil. Sometimes he gives men the right to join in that judgment for the sake of others on this earth. When we look at a modern day problem of terrorists, it is hard to find someone who wants to spare their lives and just put them in jail. "They've committed heinous crimes against men and should die!" most folks think and few oppose seeking out and destroying all of them. When I tell you that these Amalekites had become as evil as these terrorists, if not worse, you can't fathom that for some reason. You can't even imagine the little children being taught the evil ways of their fathers and mothers and the total corruption of their society. "The little children and babies were innocent!" They should have been adopted or raptured...well, they were adopted by God in their death and found greater happiness and blessing then they ever could have as adopted children of an Israelite. "They should not have been killed with such a horrible death!" Isn't God able to heal all their hurts and memories? I think so. I've heard that healing flows like a river in paradise and all the pains and torments of this life are not remembered any more. So if God is able to do these things, why do we judge Him as "unrighteous and stupid", when it is us who really are unrighteous and stupid. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 00:23:41 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote: God had his reasons for taking the lives of the young Amalekites, along with the old.
I'd like to see the chapter and verse which supports the notion that these "reasons" were fair, just and merciful. Otherwise, such a conclusion would be an unsupported assumption on your part. Of course, Biblical apologists are famous for adding all sorts of ad hoc "explanations" to the Bible which aren't really in there.
And it should go without saying (but I'll say it anyway, since it's important that everyone be reading from the same page) that all of this assumes that you, Doomar, are a Biblical literalist. If you're not, the thread is meaningless. But unfortunately, any suggestions of any motivations for God's actions which aren't explicitly written out within the Bible contradict the literalist position to begin with. So, if you are a literalist, everything you say about God and His intent requires chapter-and-verse support.
After all, to non-literalists, the OT is largely a curious history, written by victors, which may or may not make God a "fall guy" for completely human actions (like the slaughter of innocents). To Christian non-literalists, the OT doesn't much add to the central messages of Christ's teachings, and so (it seems to me) can be safely ignored. OT Biblical horrors, to a "metaphoricalist," don't amount to a hill of beans compared to Christ's two Commandments or His ressurection. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 00:31:44 [Permalink]
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Dave, you ask what lesson we should be learning from some of these stories in the Bible. You specifically talked of Lot and his daughters but failed to mention why they were still alive at all. Now there is great mercy in that story, along with horrible judgment. It is the story of Lot and Sodom and Ghomorah. A few hours earlier, Abraham had pleaded with God to not destroy the righteous with the wicked in these cities, God agreed to spare the cities if he found 10 righteous...only 10 among thousands. That is mercy. Unfortunately, Lot was the only one in the city. The city was given over to bands of homosexual men roaming the streets, looking for new flesh. The city was filled with violence and all sorts of perversion. The angels who came to destroy the city, found Lot, saved him from a mob, and got him and his family out. Their lives were spared while the rest of the cities were burnt up. This is an amazing story! God sought out the one righteous family and preserved their lives, Lot's wife disobeyed the angels and died, while Lot and his two daughters were spared. Now you, Dave, pick up with the actions of Lot's daughters and the incest with their father while he was drunk. But dont' you see the goodness of God in that story? Sure, His judgment was staggering to us, the destruction of entire cities and all the inhabitants, except Lot and two daughters. It is a warning for us today of the severity of HIs judgment if we give in to total violence and perversion in society. Note that since the beginning of man, no other cities were destroyed like these cities. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 00:53:20 [Permalink]
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Dave, I'm trying to use the Bible as my basis of judgment. The book is full of teaching about what is just law. There are examples of the law in action. There are examples of what not to do. Mistakes aren't covered over or erased from history. Truth, both good and bad is revealed. This book, however, is not easily understood and simply posessing a good intellect will not bring understanding or wisdom to light in this book. Faith is vital with trust, belief, obedience. How can anyone rebelling against the teachings of God and Christ, or rejecting them, think that they can get a handle on everything God is trying to teach men in the Bible? It's kind of like boot camp. If you don't join the program and obey the instructor, you don't learn the lessons or become "all that you should be". And do you think the author is going to reveal his deep truths to people who hate HIs guts, or those who respect and honor HIm? Consider what it would be like if you thought you should get an audience with the prime minister of England. Would you be called on if you never got in line, never made any arrangements with his secretary, never asked to see him? Well, maybe. But what if you told everyone what a jerk you thought the guy was and went around England disobeying the prime minister's orders, acting like a complete jerk? Would he see you? What if you told everyone you thought the prime minister was a stupid idiot and you mocked the speeches he made all the time? The Prime Minister would have no time at all for you. So why do you think God should reveal anything to you about Himself when you have so little respect for Him? And yet, His arms are still outstretched to each of us. He loves us in spite of our complete stupidity and arrogance..there is an end or a stipulation, though, to his mercy. "the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting toward them that fear Him" |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 01:22:17 [Permalink]
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quote: Who is "the LORD"...?
The Lord: http://www.scc.net/~heather/jack.html |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 01:22:40 [Permalink]
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Doomar: Note that Lot offered his daughters to the sodomites in an attempt to protect the two angels, who'd deceived Lot and the inhabitants of the city by appearing as normal men. Angels! Angels who, if they were out to destroy the cities, could easily have protected themselves from the mobs. Lot was lied to, acted upon that bad information by trying to sacrifice his own children (but, selfishly, not himself), and is rewarded with the lives of himself, his idiotic wife, and his two deceitful and lazy daughters.
Had God just vaporized the cities, the story would have been a warning to avoid hedonism. The story of Lot, however, is a story of God tricking a mortal into selfishly betraying his children so that they can betray him in return, for no other apparent reason than to be able to put the story of the Good Wife into the Bible. So no, I don't see how the protection of a few people, when that nice act later dooms thousands and/or millions (all of Lot's descendants save Ruth and her kids), is an act of mercy.
You say God agreed to spare the cities if ten righteous people were found among thousands? I say that God knew precisely how many righteous men were in the cities when he proposed that deal. That's not mercy, it's the offer of a "contract" in bad faith. It's a lie. And it'll take a hell of a lot of convincing for me to agree that offering your female children to a mob of homosexuals (duh!) is an act of a righteous man, so I would contend that God knew that there were exactly zero righteous men in the cities, not one righteous man.
And then to top it off, Doomar, you wrote:quote: Note that since the beginning of man, no other cities were destroyed like these cities.
No, during one 40-day period, all cities were freakin' drowned. The method of destruction is largely inconsequential when the result is all the people being murdered in ugly ways. Which is more "merciful," Doomar? Death by fire and brimstone, or drowning in a Divinely-induced torrential rain? Note that when God condemns large numbers of people, He never has them die peacefully in their sleep. The eternal torments of Hell aren't enough for God, He seems to have a need to make the deaths themselves traumatic and ugly. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 01:39:01 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by Doomar Now how is it that you think you have this great ability among men to judge the actions of God to be right or wrong?
God has to be at least as moral as we ourselves aspire. Yes, we can call those actions wrong. I do not defer my right to judge anyone.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/12/2004 01:39:51 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 01:42:26 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by Doomar Well, the same guy in the next few sentences explains how many beasts were still left in Egypt, so do you expect people to think that Moses was a complete moron or to try to understand what the fellow really meant? It's only because of the translation that it seems strange to you, but none of the Jews think it was strange, cause they really understood what he meant. It's just you that don't, cause you're expecting to find some mistake instead of trying to understand what was really meant. These assumptions of the author refuting himself are absurd.
Or is it that you make sense of nonsense because you refuse to believe, believe, that the bible could contain an error? Face it, your faith has blinded you. You are unable to come to a sensible conclusion.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/12/2004 01:44:33 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 01:44:52 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by Doomar
Dave, I'm trying to use the Bible as my basis of judgment.
And I'm asking you to share with us the verse you are using to justify God's Grace.quote: This book, however, is not easily understood and simply posessing a good intellect will not bring understanding or wisdom to light in this book. Faith is vital with trust, belief, obedience. How can anyone rebelling against the teachings of God and Christ, or rejecting them, think that they can get a handle on everything God is trying to teach men in the Bible?
Well, that kills this thread. Why did you even make the attempt at educating the atheists here when you believe them to be incapable of understanding? What the hell is the point of missionary work in general?
Way to shoot yourself in the foot.quote: It's kind of like boot camp. If you don't join the program and obey the instructor, you don't learn the lessons or become "all that you should be".
That's a poor analogy, since military discipline is an intellectual and psychological exercise. Your analogy says that soldiers need to believe that they have a drill sergeant even if they've never seen anything but his name in a book. It doesn't work that way in real life.quote: And do you think the author is going to reveal his deep truths to people who hate HIs guts, or those who respect and honor HIm? Consider what it would be like if you thought you should get an audience with the prime minister of England. Would you be called on if you never got in line, never made any arrangements with his secretary, never asked to see him? Well, maybe. But what if you told everyone what a jerk you thought the guy was and went around England disobeying the prime minister's orders, acting like a complete jerk? Would he see you? What if you told everyone you thought the prime minister was a stupid idiot and you mocked the speeches he made all the time? The Prime Minister would have no time at all for you.
Another poor analogy. In the real world, if the PM doesn't know I exist, regardless of my opinion of him, he's not going to make time to see me. On the other hand, if he knows about me, and thinks that talking to me will bring him more support in the future, then also regardless of my opinion of him, he'll make the time to see me.
And besides all that, I know that the PM of England exists. I can't say the same about God.quote: So why do you think God should reveal anything to you about Himself when you have so little respect for Him?
Because if He cares about what I think about Him, he needs to do so. And if He doesn't care, then the Bible lies. Again, which lesson would you have me learn?quote: And yet, His arms are still outstretched to each of us. He loves us in spite of our complete stupidity and arrogance..there is an end or a stipulation, though, to his mercy. "the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting toward them that fear Him"
Chapter and verse, please. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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