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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
 Posted - 06/15/2006 : 08:24:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
What is there to say? The power of self-suggestion and self-deception is much greater than people would like to acknowledge.
Pentecostals aren't better human beings than any other flawed people.
(edited for spelling)
By the way, welcome back. Long time no see...
Thanks.
I was wondering how your experience compared to what I have heard Pentecostals and others say. Did you have an initial experience that you believed to be Spirit baptism, rebirth, etc. which gave you the ability to speak in tongues? |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 08:52:02 [Permalink]
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| I can tell you my experience. When I was a teenager I was a Pentecostal (Assembly of God, to be precise). I felt so much pressure to "speak in tongues" that I faked it. Funny thing, somone translated my fake speech. That event was one of several which started my questioning of the faith. I remember that event very clearly to this day. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2006 : 18:15:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Baxter
I was wondering how your experience compared to what I have heard Pentecostals and others say. Did you have an initial experience that you believed to be Spirit baptism, rebirth, etc. which gave you the ability to speak in tongues?
I had an initial experience that could be equated to a Spirit Baptism, or rebirth. Very powerful, but in retrospect I can see several contributing factors for this self-suggestion working in unison. However, I didn't start speaking in tongues at that point. (And the spiritual leaders made a point telling me that tongues wasn't necessary for the Spirit Baptism.) That came later, very similar Pleco's story except that I wasn't consciously faking it. I mean I was faking it, but I thought it was genuine because I so much wanted it to be genuine.
No one was ever there to "translate" my speak, so I was never made aware of my self-deception. I allowed myself to be programmed in most of the standard dogmas of the Pentecostal church, but with some modifications: science and technology was still a huge interest of mine, and only in some few situations did I have to engage in double-think.
I managed to mostly stay clear of the literal Genesis creation vs Science discussions. I never doubted science, and thought that the sollution was in a non-literal interpretation of the Bible: "A flexible faith does not snap when winds blow hard". |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 10:33:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I had an initial experience that could be equated to a Spirit Baptism, or rebirth. Very powerful, but in retrospect I can see several contributing factors for this self-suggestion working in unison. However, I didn't start speaking in tongues at that point. (And the spiritual leaders made a point telling me that tongues wasn't necessary for the Spirit Baptism.) That came later, very similar Pleco's story except that I wasn't consciously faking it. I mean I was faking it, but I thought it was genuine because I so much wanted it to be genuine.
It's hard to believe that I could deceieve myself like that, even though I did believe in it and wanted to "speak in tongues" for a time. I no longer believe that what is referred to as tongues today is what the biblical writers were referring to. I would be interested to know how far back glossolalia dates.
quote:
No one was ever there to "translate" my speak, so I was never made aware of my self-deception. I allowed myself to be programmed in most of the standard dogmas of the Pentecostal church, but with some modifications: science and technology was still a huge interest of mine, and only in some few situations did I have to engage in double-think.
I managed to mostly stay clear of the literal Genesis creation vs Science discussions. I never doubted science, and thought that the sollution was in a non-literal interpretation of the Bible: "A flexible faith does not snap when winds blow hard".
So it was science that caused the change in you? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2006 : 15:14:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Baxter
So it was science that caused the change in you?
No, it was distance.
Science was always there, more or less.
Something about my personality (perhaps the fact that I wasn't science-illiterate, and loved technology) didn't seem to make my Pentecostal friends appreciate my company as much. When something cool was going down, like a BBQ-evening, I was always last to know. When they wanted to throw a bachelor party for one of the guys, they planned for two weeks, but it wasn't until the evening before the party before they called me, because one of the drivers got sick and they realised they desperately needed someone else with access to a car.
I was more or less an outsider, not being in the "inner circle".
I started question the concept of an inner circle, it wasn't biblical. The conclusion was that they weren't living the bible. This started a series of critical questions. How could they be considered good Christians when they aren't practising what they are preaching?
Eventually, the exercise in critical thinking led me to the realisation that is was all a sham. It was a long and painful experience, but I'm stronger and wiser from it.
People are people. You can slap a sticker-with-a-cross-on-it in the forehead of anyone, but it doesn't make them Christians. Assholes are assholes even if they have a chain around their neck with a cross dangling there, and a bible under their arm. It just makes them more hypocritical. I've met a precious few who actually embraced the ideology with their whole heart. The rest of the Church was a rotten apple.
I tried a few other churches too, Pentecostal, Baptist, and some other kinds, but they were all the same.
While science wasn't the factor that tipped the scales, it was the foundation of the critical analysis that convinced me of how mistaken/mislead I've been. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2006 : 19:48:27 [Permalink]
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In my case (assuming anyone is interested) I remember reading a short story by Issac Asimov, where he discussed how the bible says the earth is flat and provided scripture reference and historical background to prove his case. I then read the apologists' "explanation", and that explanation left me with an extremely bad taste in my mouth. I had never bought the Genesis story as fact in the first place. I then moved on to the book of Revelation and began looking at it through a critical eye. By then, I was caught on the slippery slope toward the inevitability of intellectual and emotional freedom.
I must say that for me, religion provided some emotional support for me in my youth. I think that is why a lot of people still practice it; they need the emotional support of the Big Buddy in the Sky, and the more realistic support of the community and the friends. Though I agree with the good Dr., churches can be far worse in their groups and gossip than any other group I've been around. Religion also satisfied an intellectual need for me when I was young until I became exposed to other teaching/philosophy. The only relapse I ever had was during an extremely emotional and stressful time in my life; looking back, I know I was not able to think rationally (I was having to take medication for it), and some people took advantage of that (though I must say that I let them, because it always takes two to tango.) The relapse was quite temporary (a month at the most) until I got myself together.
And the reason I was reading Asimov in the first place was that I had an interest in science fiction, science, and technology (I started programming computers when I was 9 in the late 70s, for example.) |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2006 : 21:10:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
It was a long and painful experience, but I'm stronger and wiser from it.
Was it? So long as we're discussing conversion stories, I might as well add mine.
I was raised Catholic, grades 1-12. Fortunately for me, I must admit that these were fairly liberal institutions. No nuns cracked me on the knuckles with rulers. We were taught, especially in higher education, that that questioning one's faith was natural and healthy. We were also taught evolution in biology, so that was never even a concern.
However, I suppose I seemed to question the faith more than other students in my class. I have a distinct memory of a teacher asking me to put my hand down, her reason being that my constant questioning had placed the religion class weeks behind schedule.
By my sophmore year in high school I think I pretty much knew I was an atheist. I made for an interesting high school experience. But as I said--to be honest there were rituals, morning prayer and friday mass that I found boring--but never was I made to feel an outsider because of my beliefs. In retrospect, I think many teachers were quite considerate of my feelings. Always christianity was presented as an attractive option that someone could not be made to accept. They never tried to force belief from me.
In the following years, I do think I was surprised at how many others did believe the stories we were told as children. I had always assumed that like me, they took the stories of a guy walking on water and rising from the dead with a grain of salt. I was actually shocked to learn that so many of my friends believed it.
Some years after high school, a buddy asked me when it was that I stopped believing in god. After thinking about it for some time, I had to admit that I don't think I ever believed in god. It was just one of those things that for some reason didn't stick to me, like trying to attach Velcro to polished steel. It just slid off.
Why? That part I don't know. Why was I immune to such systematic and and extensive brain washing? I don't have an answer except to say that becoming an atheist was as natural as a fish living in water. It required no special effort on my part. It was just how I was.
Stories of people who really believed it at one point and then somehow managed to pull themselves out of religion I find to be much more interesting, but only because I don't rightly understand how one allows oneself to be convinced in the first place.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/17/2006 21:58:27 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2006 : 22:02:38 [Permalink]
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I've also never been under the sway of a religion.
My family, when I was young, actively participated in an Episcopal church, with the usual rounds of sunday school and wednesday night youth groups. As with many Episcopal churches, the congregation was largely liberal and democrat. Most people, I suspect, just enjoyed the community, and the preacher was pretty cool (tolerant of a bored and overly mischievous kid). None of the people there were literalists, that I recall. Many were serious about their faith and belief in a god, but none so much so that they were willing to insist others believe as they did.
When I was old enough to be left alone at home, I was never forced to attend if I didn't want to go.
Which was probably a relief to the sunday school teachers and youth group organizers.... No soda in the holy water, no cigarette loads in the candles, etc...
I just nver bought into what they were selling, not that they were selling it to hard. Combine that with parents who emphasized education and freethinking (they were hippies), and here we are.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2006 : 00:22:47 [Permalink]
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| I sometimes practice Glossolalia to stay awake when I am driving late at night and don't have far to go. It requires enough mental acitivity to keep me awake without demanding too much concentration for driving. It is easy to fake speaking in tongues. When I retire I plan to get a job as a Walmart greeter so I can speak in tongues to the customers entering the store. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2006 : 00:33:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
I sometimes practice Glossolalia to stay awake when I am driving late at night and don't have far to go.
Keep a piece of hard candy in your mouth. If your brain thinks you are eating, it makes it harder to doze off, I think.
That is a trick I use to stay awake and alert on on-call work nights where I end up working an extremely long shift, or end up called out at 1am or later. It works for me anyway.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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