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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2001 : 14:27:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
. People say the same thing about narural disasters and how there seem to be more and more of them and that they kill more people even though some of the worst natural disasters happened over a hundred years ago.
Just Goes to show you how myopic the human race is. I love it when you hear the older generations bitch about kids these days, or reminisce about the good old days.
They easily forget about the kids in the past like Billy the Kid, John Wesly Harden, and even Bonnie and Clyde. And what about the good old days like Vietnam, The great depression,and the Carter Administration? Heck you can go back as far as you wish, and things have never been as good as they are now.
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2001 : 02:42:10 [Permalink]
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Interestingly enough the best times in US history was actually the New Deal era, when considering the wages compared to cost of living.
At the rate its going in the US cost of living will outstrip wages, unless the wages start rising faster soon.
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2001 : 16:07:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would say that compared to the past things are really good right now. I'd even hazard to say, never better.
Actually, I think I'm being taken completely out of context here. I was making an assumption on how the population in general will respond. Not that I personnally felt this way. I'm certainly no sociologist, and my guess could have been entirely wrong, but, hey, it was a poll asking me to take a guess at what the future holds.
Personnally, I agree with you. In fact I was recently asked to leave a get together because I steadfastly refused to agree that the world was a worse place than when I was a child. And I argued very much the same reasoning that you gave. (apparently I argued alittle to vehemently. . . . . . really pissed my sister-in-law off. . .)
quote:
Religion is a comfort. Is it? Is that its purpose? Sure, Jesus will save you from hell fire and torment. But wait a minute! Who was it who told us that there was such a thing as eternal torment to begin with?
Religion is a comfort if you think you're with the 'IN" crowd. Again, I'm guessing at the masses response to what I guessed they would perceive as a declining time of safety and security. What do they care about Hell if they don't believe they're going there?
Although I don't have any statistics to spout, I'm fairly confident that people have been drawn to religion for reasons just like these, for centuries.
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey.
Edited by - broven on 05/29/2001 16:09:57 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2001 : 08:43:24 [Permalink]
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My history teacher yesterday mentioned that Europe was in (his words) the "Post Christian Era". He mentioned that a great majority of Euros don't go to church anymore, and that in some countries, it's as little as 20-30%. So whether or not religion itself is declining, church-going certainly is! In Europe at least.
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2001 : 02:15:38 [Permalink]
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That is a positive sign, because reduced church going means that religion would play less of a role in their lives.
Alhough one does have to ask what they will replace it with.
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2001 : 16:53:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
That is a positive sign, because reduced church going means that religion would play less of a role in their lives.
I have to disagree with that. A diminished role of religion is not necessarily a good thing, just as an enhanced role of religion is not a good thing. Religion serves the purpose of being a convenient set of morals for those who may not be able to function normally in society without. There are people who need religion.
When religion becomes too prevalent there is risk of dogmatic clashes. When religion becomes less important, those who might spiritually profit from such a system of beliefs may not be able to.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2001 : 17:44:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Women who submit to that kind of semi-slavery deserve everything they get.
I have to take issue here. Unfortunately I don't think the women in Afghanistan have too much choice, especially when the rules are 'upon penalty of death'. There is a difference here between those who live in an oppressively male oriented religious fanatical society and those in religiously free societies that choose to stay with abusive men. These two issues are different beasts, tho they are both insidious and extraordinarily dehumanizing acts toward women.
Spinnin' my wheels and gettin' no where - fast |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2001 : 21:02:31 [Permalink]
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That is a positive sign, because reduced church going means that religion would play less of a role in their lives.
Alhough one does have to ask what they will replace it with.
And
I have to disagree with that. A diminished role of religion is not necessarily a good thing, just as an enhanced role of religion is not a good thing. Religion serves the purpose of being a convenient set of morals for those who may not be able to function normally in society without. There are people who need religion.
A number of assumptions here guys that I think we should look at.
First: that religion leaves a void that would have to be replaced by something. Second: the need for religiously based morals. And third: some people need religion.
Looking at people who have been Atheists their entire lives you find none of these to be the case. These people have no void to be filled. It's a non-issue, the concept doesn't even make sense to them. Only people who have been told every day of their lives that there is a void to be filled talk of one.
Morality -if we check the divorce rates for Atheists they are the same as for Roman Catholics (who are forbidden to divorce) and considerably lower than the so-called Born Agains.
FBI crime statistics show that the only group with a lower rate (per capita) than Atheists are the Quakers. At this time there are no Atheists convicted of a capital offence.
I'm not sure just how accurate these figures are in demonstrating a given groups "moral rating". There are sure to be plenty of extenuating circumstances. (Atheists tend to be better educated than the norm. Perhaps they are committing the crimes and getting away with them.) But they do suggest that the group that does not have religiously based morality is no worse behaved than the group that does.
I should also point out that the idea in the European world that morality is based on religion originates with the Christians. Since the people who lived in Classical Europe had just as strong, and in many cases stronger, morals than the Christians do I think we can disregard the Christian claim as being idle boasting.
Now the claim that some people need religion.
On long car trips I sometimes listen to Christian Talk Radio; it gets me angry and keeps me from dozing off behind the wheel. The stock and trade of these shows is the alcoholic/drug addict who finds Jesus and spends his days witnessing to other addicts. One day my wife made an observation that was like a light going on. I can't believe this hadn't occurred to me before she said it. She pointed out that these people had compulsive personalities. In finding Jesus they weren't cured at all but were merely trading one compulsion for another.
Are there people who need religion. Yes there are. They need it like a wino needs a shot of muscatel. If you give them religion you are no better than an alcoholic's facilitator.
Perhaps SFN can start a twelve step program.
When religion becomes less important, those who might spiritually profit from such a system of beliefs may not be able to.
What the Hell does that really mean--spiritually profit?
When the dead talk -- they talk to him
Edited by - slater on 06/03/2001 21:04:11 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2001 : 23:12:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
In finding Jesus they weren't cured at all but were merely trading one compulsion for another.
Are there people who need religion. Yes there are. They need it like a wino needs a shot of muscatel. If you give them religion you are no better than an alcoholic's facilitator.
Perhaps SFN can start a twelve step program.
Not such a bad idea there Slater. I know when I made the move to atheism, I felt like I was the only one out there.
Yeah, religion is like an addiction. You trade one feel good for another, neither of which has any basis in reality. What really burns is these newly born agains scream the loudest among the flocks.
Spinnin' my wheels and gettin' no where - fast |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2001 : 01:38:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
What the Hell does that really mean--spiritually profit?
I mean that in exactly the sense you seem to think. Some people have a compulsion for SOMETHING, and in many cases religion serves that need. You brought up the example of the drunkard who "finds God" and quits drinking, saying this person is merely trading one compulsion for another. Why is that a bad thing?
You also (jokingly, I am sure) suggest a 12 step program for theists. Are you familiar with a 12 step program? Since I am not religious, I find them highly offensive. They tell me the only way I can quit whatever it is I may be addicted to is to give myself up to some higher power.
http://members.aol.com/mipg12step/12steps.html
Maybe somebody could find some non-theistic plan to cure addictions.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2001 : 02:03:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Maybe somebody could find some non-theistic plan to cure addictions.
Unfortunately, with a non-theistic plan you have to rely upon yourself primarily to do what is necessary. For many that would just be to damn hard.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2001 : 02:34:13 [Permalink]
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What? And have people actually accept personal responsibility for their actions? Perish the thought.
Your mention of the 12 step nonsense reminded me of something. When a person in the military has a problem with alcohol, they can be ordered to attend AA. A friend of mine, also an atheist was ordered to go. She reported back to the good folks at Mental Health that she found the program offensive, it was more like a church, and could she please investigate another avenue for treatment. Mental Health responded that AA was not a church. Oh, but my friend pointed out, it starts with a prayer, then there's a bunch of "uplifting" talk, a collection plate is passed around, and then there's a closing prayer. What would you call this? She reminded Mental Health that she was an atheist. She was told she'd better change her views, or be kicked out of the military. Well, the poor kid have to spend the next several months giving religion enough lip service to keep her job.
Probably should have posted this under a different topic. Sorry.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2001 : 02:51:53 [Permalink]
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I just wanted to reply to see if the image appears.
But the way things are going today, it seems like religion is not going to decline, let's just hope it stays the same and the world doesn't get more ignorant. Let's try to uplift peoples knowledge when confronted by a believer. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2001 : 14:57:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
What would you call this? She reminded Mental Health that she was an atheist. She was told she'd better change her views, or be kicked out of the military. Well, the poor kid have to spend the next several months giving religion enough lip service to keep her job.
Thats just wrong! Hell, woulda felt that way when I was still a non practicing catholic.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 16:14:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
You brought up the example of the drunkard who "finds God" and quits drinking, saying this person is merely trading one compulsion for another. Why is that a bad thing?
Simple, the persons illness isn't cured. They still have the same problem.
quote:
Maybe somebody could find some non-theistic plan to cure addictions.
Actually, with substance abuse, the recovery rate for people who are left on their own with no outside help and those who subscribe to theistic plans (the figures that I've seen are for AA) are the same.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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