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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2005 : 08:51:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
For a "smart" student who has taken in the belief that there is no spiritual rhelm, nor God, nor Creator, why would he refrain from any behavior he likes? What motivation would prevent him from suicide or killing his classmates? Any moral reasoning without an eternal consequence would be just plain foolishness to that student.
Which is why a legalistic one complete with consequences can be taught. Then there's the whole societal norms and you wouldn't like it done to you arguements. See, no threat of afterlife intervention needed.
quote:
Why, I've come from a monkey and men have made up all these rules. Why should I care? If I obey all the rules and live without any fun, I'll die like the rest, so why not drink, do drugs, have sex, and be merry. At least I'll have fun before I die.
See above answer.
quote:
So without allowing any religious argument or training of morals or simple prayer by those so moved, is it any wonder we have shootings in our schools and other violence, drug use, and sexual promiscuity, where "chewing gum" used to be the worst problem in '63?
What a bunch of hooey. Religious training is the responsibility of the parent, not the schools. It is the thing that Christians strive for in schools, but the one which they complain so bitterly about when they percieve a different religion is gaining an upper hand. The whole California comparative religion class requirement was proof of that.
The 60's were also a time of great societal upheaval. Ideas from the "flower children" concerning recreational drug use and sexual hedonism to expand the mind came from Dennis Leary and others.
School violence and suicides cranked up as the idea of drugging children instead of helping them deal with their problems gained prominance. Lets not forget the growing pains of school desegregation which whipped up old prejudices.
The 1963 Abbington V Shempp decision wasn't the first holding public schools to be incapable of religious instruction. One of the decisions that SCOTUS based it on was Minor V. Board of Education of Cincinatti (Ohio Supreme Court, 1872) In which Alphonse Taft (grandfather to William Howard Taft, President of the US) said, "absolute equality before the law, of all religious opinions and sects . . . . The government is neutral, and, while protecting all, it prefers none, and it disparages none."
Then there's the 1962 Engel v. Vitale which states, "There can be no doubt that New York's state prayer program officially establishes the religious beliefs embodied in the Regents' prayer. The respondents' argument to the contrary, which is largely based upon the contention that the Regents' prayer is "non-denominational" and the fact that the program, as modified and approved by state courts, does not require all pupils to recite the prayer but permits those who wish to do so to remain silent or be excused from the room, ignores the essential nature of the program's constitutional defects." -- Justice Black writing for the majority
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 10:23:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Valiant Dancer:
The 60's were also a time of great societal upheaval. Ideas from the "flower children" concerning recreational drug use and sexual hedonism to expand the mind came from Dennis Leary and others.
Are you sure you didn't mean Timothy Leary?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 10:38:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Are you sure you didn't mean Timothy Leary?
He means Timothy Leary....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:48:04 [Permalink]
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I spent quite a lot of time and effort crafting a response to your points which showed just how you are ignorant of the current laws and practices in public schools and elsewhere with regards to religion. I often cited your own failures to support your own points. That you apparently ignore all that, and respond to just a few sentences of my posts makes me think you didn't bother reading them. And then to tell me that I am the one in need of an etiquette lesson suggests the following label for you, yet again: hypocrite.
whatever, oh mighty judge of men. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/18/2005 13:04:12 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:49:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Valiant Dancer:
The 60's were also a time of great societal upheaval. Ideas from the "flower children" concerning recreational drug use and sexual hedonism to expand the mind came from Dennis Leary and others.
Are you sure you didn't mean Timothy Leary?
Yes, I meant Timothy Leary of "tune in, turn on, drop out" fame. I regret the error. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 13:06:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I spent quite a lot of time and effort crafting a response to your points which showed just how you are ignorant of the current laws and practices in public schools and elsewhere with regards to religion. I often cited your own failures to support your own points. That you apparently ignore all that, and respond to just a few sentences of my posts makes me think you didn't bother reading them. And then to tell me that I am the one in need of an etiquette lesson suggests the following label for you, yet again: hypocrite.
whatever, oh mighty judge of men.
Point made, I suppose. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 13:29:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Point made, I suppose.
Indeed. Doomar made my point very well. Mind you, it's an entirely unsatisfactory termination of the discussion, but to use his word, "whatever." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 13:48:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Indeed. Doomar made my point very well. Mind you, it's an entirely unsatisfactory termination of the discussion, but to use his word, "whatever."
At this point, did you really expect anything else?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 19:42:56 [Permalink]
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Yeah.
I think it's a matter of setting our sights to high. There is little chance we will ever convince the likes of Doomar and velch that they are way out of touch.
The discourse with them, however, (atleast in my opinion) should have a different objective. It shouldn't, necessarily, be directed towards the Doomars and verlchs. Rather, direct the main intent toward those who may be in the audience observing the discourse. Those who are either new to critical thinking/scientific method/logic/ect, or are already closer to our views should be the target audience. (think I read an article about this in Skeptical Inquirer last year)
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 20:38:12 [Permalink]
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You're absolutely correct, Dude, and I do my best to keep the "lurkers" in mind when I write a post - any post. Admittedly, though, after 11 pages, not only do I figure most of the lurkers have gone off to mend their socks, wash their hair or other more worthwhile pursuits, but I sometimes get lost in the brouhaha and forget what I'm supposed to be doing. Hell, that has happened between you and I, so you know what I'm talking about.
With any luck, in this particular instance, someone "out there" reading this thing through will be able to get something useful out of just the questions I asked near the end, even if they weren't answered. For example, if Doomar either can't or won't furnish the particulars of completed court cases which unambiguously demonstrate his points, then his arguments about the erosion of religious freedom in the United States seem pretty damn weak. So, even though this ended rather badly, hopefully some good will come of it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 20:52:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
So, even though this ended rather badly, hopefully some good will come of it.
It ended with Doomar looking like an ass, so in my opinion it ended fine.
On a side note, I must say I don't post to sway any possible audience per se. I mean, most writing is for a particular audience, but my motives aren't to change anybodys' minds. I usually post to get a handle on my own opinions and positions, even if its only to reaffirm them. Sometimes I do end up changing my mind, though. Such is the nature of discourse.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/18/2005 20:53:38 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 00:13:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hell, that has happened between you and I, so you know what I'm talking about.
Indeed. I wasn't meaning to come off critical there. Sorry if it was.
Was just making a point that we are unlikely, regardless of how well we construct our arguments, to sway the verlchs and Doomars...
quote:
On a side note, I must say I don't post to sway any possible audience per se. I mean, most writing is for a particular audience, but my motives aren't to change anybodys' minds. I usually post to get a handle on my own opinions and positions, even if its only to reaffirm them. Sometimes I do end up changing my mind, though. Such is the nature of discourse.
H.H., I think that is generally true for most of us who post here. But, participation in this community does have a point. quote:
The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact
Even if it is only to reinforce our own personal grasp of these methods.
And, as it is a public forum, we should try to keep in mind the larger goal, and larger audience, as well. I think that just about everyone here does a fine job of this.
Again,Dave_W, I didn't intend to come off as being critical of your posts in this thread, I was just making a general comment. You have better ability to speak to Doomar civilly than I do. 
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 08:22:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Indeed. I wasn't meaning to come off critical there. Sorry if it was.
Nonono. I was being self-critical.quote:
Was just making a point that we are unlikely, regardless of how well we construct our arguments, to sway the verlchs and Doomars...
Unlikely, but not impossible. Stranger things have happened.quote:
You have better ability to speak to Doomar civilly than I do.
I still need work, apparently.  quote:
Originally posted by H.
On a side note, I must say I don't post to sway any possible audience per se. I mean, most writing is for a particular audience, but my motives aren't to change anybodys' minds.
No, my intent with regards to lurkers is just to inform, not to sway. Just getting the arguments out in public is important. To me, at least.quote:
I usually post to get a handle on my own opinions and positions, even if its only to reaffirm them.
That, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 09:33:45 [Permalink]
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Damn! I thought we was doin' quotes, here. Well, that's what I get for going on hiatus, I 'spect. But whadda hell; here's one anyway:
Faith must have adequate evidence, else it is mere superstition. -- Alexander Hodge |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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