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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 01/16/2005 : 11:08:39 [Permalink]
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Actually, Doomar, it seems that their views on God, the Constitution and this country were, at best, contradictory. For while you've posted lots of quotes about how so-and-so really liked his god, others here have posted quotes of the same person expressing something quite different. (Perhaps that's because we're looking at these quotes out of historical context-- Jefferson was probably actively thinking about the subject of God and Christianity for decades, and doubtlessly had different views at different times. He perhaps even vacillated between different points of view (our current dip-shit President would call that "flip-flopping") over time...)
I agree that these men probably changed or revised their views over time, as most of us do. They did not agree with each other completely either. Understanding their position, however, is a key to understanding our own Constitution.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/16/2005 11:12:48 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 11:17:44 [Permalink]
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[size=1]quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
[quote]Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Washington, Franklin were all men who believed in an Almighty God who was creator of the universe and who worked Providentially in the world.
So what? Most everyone in those days, as today, was some kind of deist or theist. The fact remains that the government they fashioned neither promotes nor restricts the practice or non-practice of any religion. What other beliefs they may have professed is irrelevant.[/size=1
Actually their are restrictions today imposed by the courts that were not imposed in the early days. There are many court battles being waged regarding religious freedom vs. establishment of religion. The attitude of church vs. religion was very different in those early days. Today, many view "church" the same as "religion" and, thus, misinterpret to meaning of the first amendment. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 11:20:16 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Doomar:
I happen to agree more with the founders than many of you who agree with a more "modern" view as set forth by some of our former and current Supreme Court justices.
And that “modern” view is?
A view that considers the public practice of religious acts arising from the conscience of individuals and not the state, as harmful to people. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 12:30:11 [Permalink]
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Were most of you as strong for religious freedom and prevention of any prohibition of religion, we would have little to argue about.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 13:02:12 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by filthy
"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420
George Washington worshipped at an Episcopal Church, considered orthodox. The EB is wrong. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 13:07:02 [Permalink]
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"We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth that religion, or the duty which we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence. The religion, then, of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and that it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate." [James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance to the Assemby of Virginia]
Is religion "forced" upon children when a teacher out of their own conscience prays with their class 1st thing in the morning? Or is it merely an expression of the conviction of the teacher that without God's help with their class, the learning for the day will not go as well? When that teacher submits their mind and conscience to the state to obey the judge's dictate, contrary to their belief, are they not failing to be true to their own personal conviction? Are not parents free to question the teacher or instruct their children how to deal with these circumstances without expecting a mandate from the courts to prohibit the free exercise of religion? If a Mormon teacher prays with her class where 90% are not Mormon, is my child "automatically" a Mormon for listening to the teacher pray? If it is a Muslim, is my child "automatically" a Muslim? Of course not. Showing respect and tolerance for the teacher's religious belief is part of maturing as a child into adulthood.
Is the saying of a public prayer by an individual an act of establishing a religion by the State? Only in the most convoluted interpretation of such a simple religious act. Do I think that states should dictate mandatory prayers? No. I think individuals should be free to practice their religion within the context of their work, whatever it might be. Should an individual fail to fulfill their duties because of overextending their "freedom", they can be dealt with by their boss, according to the failure to fulfill their job requirements, not on religious practice grounds.
Is the reading of a verse from the "Koran" or the "Bible" or "Confusious" by an individual teacher moved by conscience within the classroom an act of "establishing religion" by the Congress of the United States? I think not. If you think it is, can you explain how that particular class, much less, the entire school or district or state is affected in "establishing a particular religion" by the act of an individual exercising their unabridged freedom of speech and religion? And would the prohibition of their exercising that right not be an action contrary to the 2nd clause of the 1st amendment, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 14:41:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Is religion "forced" upon children when a teacher out of their own conscience prays with their class 1st thing in the morning? Or is it merely an expression of the conviction of the teacher that without God's help with their class, the learning for the day will not go as well?...
Is the saying of a public prayer by an individual an act of establishing a religion by the State?...
Is the reading of a verse from the "Koran" or the "Bible" or "Confusious" by an individual teacher moved by conscience within the classroom an act of "establishing religion" by the Congress of the United States?
If the person in question is employed by a public institution (school, government agency, whatever), then they are to keep their personal religious beliefs separated from their official duties.
If you are a public school teacher, then as an employee of a governmental unit, you are not permitted to pray with or in front of your students. Because you are in a position of authority and are a representative of the government, it stands to reason that you will be perceived as attempting to promote your personal beliefs with the endorsement of the government. If you want to pray with your students, you should teach in a private school.
None of this interferes with anyone's right to practice religion. It does limit that right (as all our rights have limits) so as not to give the appearance that a governmental unit endorses said religion. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 16:39:01 [Permalink]
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If the person in question is employed by a public institution (school, government agency, whatever), then they are to keep their personal religious beliefs separated from their official duties.{this is the politically correct viewpoint - hard to back up with founding father testimony or examples of history}
If you are a public school teacher, then as an employee of a governmental unit, you are not permitted to pray with or in front of your students. Because you are in a position of authority and are a representative of the government, it stands to reason that you will be perceived as attempting to promote your personal beliefs with the endorsement of the government. If you want to pray with your students, you should teach in a private school.
None of this interferes with anyone's right to practice religion. It does limit that right (as all our rights have limits) so as not to give the appearance that a governmental unit endorses said religion
If one considers that their religion has no place in their work, then I would agree with you. However, if one believes that "all things are wrought through prayer" and that "men ought always to pray and not to faint" and other such admonitions, to eliminate these tenents of their faith to keep their job as teacher would not be acceptable. Therefore, it is clear that not only is the governmental unit not endorsing said religion of the teacher, but is actively seeking to dissuade children from having anything to do with it, which is, in effect, creating a negative law showing less regard for the religion that expresses itself in the daily life of the teacher through her public prayer for God's grace and help on her students. You can argue that school is not the place for this, but you cannot argue that the religion practiced by this teacher is being "put down" in society, far from the religious freedom spoken of by our forefathers. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 16:57:40 [Permalink]
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"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams in an address to the military Oct. 11, 1798
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 16:58:59 [Permalink]
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"Freedom, and not servitude is the cure of anarchy; as religion, and not atheism, is the true remedy for superstition."
Edmond Burke 1775 |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 17:01:08 [Permalink]
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I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did.
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1738 - from a letter to his father (Ben Franklin)
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not care to support it, so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
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1754 - from Poor Richard's Almanac (Works, Volume XIII)
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 17:07:00 [Permalink]
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| James Madison (1751-1836) clearly articulated this concept of separation when explaining the First Amendment's protection of religious liberty. He said that the First Amendment to the Constitution was prompted because "The people feared one sect might obtain a preeminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform." |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 17:11:45 [Permalink]
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Is the saying of a public prayer by an individual an act of establishing a religion by the State?
No one has yet to answer this question.
And in conjunction, wherein is it written in the Constitution that public officials, such as president, congressman, senator, judge, magistrate, sheriff have no right to express their religious convictions in public? Also, since when is a public school teacher, employed by a particular county forbidden by the Constitution from expressing their religious convictions? Can someone quote me this restriction in the law? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 17:15:00 [Permalink]
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| If faith in an Almighty God had not been part of our founding father's conscience, I doubt that America would exist today. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 17:17:33 [Permalink]
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By driving religion from the public square, we have gone a long way toward dislodging our values from their mooring in moral truth. ... Without the connection to a higher law, we have made it more and more difficult for people to answer the question why it is wrong to lie, cheat or steal; to settle conflicts with violence, to be unfaithful to one's spouse, or to exploit children; to despoil the environment, to defraud a customer, or to demean any employee.
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Nov. 1, 2000 - from a speech delivered at Notre Dame University, Joseph Lieberman
... in this actual world, a churchless community where men have abandoned or scoffed at or ignored their religious needs is a community on the rapid downgrade.
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1917 - quoted by William Simon in "Why America Needs Religion", a Heritage Foundation Lecture, Teddy Roosevelt |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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