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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  22:36:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Neither do I feel compelled to hold your hand and guide you in your search for truth, Dave. No pain, no gain. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  22:41:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Statute of Religious Freedom
I. Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which in common with his fellow-citizens he has a natural right; that it tends only to corrupt the principles of that religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion, and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of the tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment; and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.

II. Be it enacted by the General assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, not shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, that that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Who wrote these words?

1. George Washington
2. Thomas Jefferson
3. James Madison

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  22:51:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

XXXIX. And whereas the ministers of the gospel are, by their profession, dedicated to the service of God and the care of souls, and ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their function; therefore, no minister of the gospel, or priest of any denomination whatsoever, shall, at any time hereafter, under any presence or description whatever, be eligible to, or capable of holding, any civil or military office or place within this State.

Taken from the State of New York Constitution, April 20th, 1777
Why, Doomar, are you quoting things which are obviously unconstitutional religious tests?

I mean, you really should inform the New York Army National Guard 53rd Troop that the position of "chaplain" violates their state Constitution. You should also inform the State that Reverend Ruben Diaz, Sr. should never have been elected to the State Senate.

Or does it make any difference to you that the piece of the New York Constitution you quote is flagrantly violated all the time, and it should be so.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  22:59:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

Neither do I feel compelled to hold your hand and guide you in your search for truth, Dave. No pain, no gain. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
No, Doomar, it is I who won't hold your hand to make sure that every statement you make is true. I'll just ask you to do so, instead.

It seems obvious to me that you're not interested in any sort of "search for truth" if you won't take the time to demonstrate that what you post here is true. I have no obligation or responsibility to determine if what you say is true. You have both, however, if you have any desire to show that you're willing to engage in an honest and open debate on these matters.

Otherwise, you're correct: I have no need to spend time writing responses to a person who chooses to use (and abuse) the SFN as little more than a soapbox for his pronouncements.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  23:09:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

Statute of Religious Freedom
...
II. Be it enacted by the General assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, not shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, that that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Who wrote these words?
Thomas Jefferson. And Rich Geib is cool:
Until the beginning of the Revolutionary War, nine of the thirteen colonies still officially supported one particular religion, called an established church. But the practice had been weakened by the "Great Awakening," and by 1787 only Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Connecticut maintained established religions. In the other states, the support of religious institutions depended on the voluntary contributions of their members.

Thomas Jefferson led the fight for religious freedom and separation of church and state in his native Virginia. This brought him into conflict with the Anglican Church, the established church in Virginia. After a long and bitter debate, Jefferson's statute for religious freedom passed the state legislature. In Jefferson's words, there was now "freedom for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindu and infidel of every denomination." When the First Amendment to the Constitution went into effect in 1791, Jefferson's principle of separation of church and state became part of the supreme law of the land.
Seriously, Doomar, I have no idea what your point is with posting the first two (of three) articles of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, but thanks for doing so. It provides an excellent look into the meaning of the First Amendment of the Constitution, from one of the Founding Fathers.
…that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry…
That kicks butt.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  23:13:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Dave, I think you are missing the point of this thread. I accept your rejection of the statement I made. You are free to do so. Will you venture a guess on the author of some of these quotes?

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  23:16:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Dave, you are correct. Thomas Jefferson

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  23:22:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

Dave, I think you are missing the point of this thread.

And what is the point of this thread? Make it already, since we all know you are dying to, as we are dying to show you why you are wrong.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  23:26:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

Dave, I think you are missing the point of this thread. I accept your rejection of the statement I made. You are free to do so. Will you venture a guess on the author of some of these quotes?



What IS the point of this thread, Doomar (besides, of course, posting seven times in a row)? It seems that you've provided lots of neat material about what people who lived 300 years ago thought about the world and religion. And really-- it's neat. I look forward to your posts on 18th century science, medicine, and society. Doubtless those are just as important today. I mean, who doesn't want to have leeches used to cure medical ailments? Washington had it done, so why shouldn't we? Seriously-- if Washington loved his fucking god so fucking much, then we should too. And similarly, if leeches were good enough to cure him (oops-- OK, so he died after his treatment), then it's good enough for modern Christians, too. And don't forget slaves. Be sure to cite various 18th century attitudes about slaves, women, and non-Europeans, because that also has to have signficant importance for how we view the world today. 300 years later.

So again, thanks, Doomar, for showing us how we can apply 300-year-old thinking to the modern world. Good idea!
Edited by - Cuneiformist on 01/15/2005 23:28:11
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  00:30:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

Dave, I think you are missing the point of this thread.
You think? You think I'm missing the point? As I've said at least three times now, I don't know what your point is. And at least two other people don't know what your point is. Common sense says that if many other people don't understand you, it's not their problem, it's yours.

I'm no longer even willing to guess that this thread has anything to do with Madison, "others" or religion, despite the title you gave the thread. You're going to have to lay it all out for us, in precise detail.
quote:
Will you venture a guess on the author of some of these quotes?
Even though you told me that Jefferson was correct (which I already knew, thanks to Google), I will assume that you were too busy writing letters to the Governor of New York about all the unconstitutional goings-on there to tell me what the hell your point is, since I asked for it once again prior to this post.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  07:51:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Well, I'm wondering what's the point of this thread, too. See, I've no reason to take the thought of dead American presidents seriously - I'm not even American, why should I care? However, I keep following this thread and trying to find the point of it.

Care to inform the cute little foreigner of your intentions?

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  08:36:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message
Ok, since you need a point spelled out. These quotes show the active religious beliefs - the faith in God, if you will - of many of the forefathers in American history and how their faith affected the framing of our Constitution and laws. The attitudes they possessed toward religion are made clearer by reading their own words, rather than reading the words of someone else who read about them. Because I am interested in learning about this, I thought others might be, too.
As to the relevance in today's society: there are American's today who hold very different views from these founders toward religion in society. It is interesting to see the contrast as viewed through the words of these founding fathers. I happen to agree more with the founders than many of you who agree with a more "modern" view as set forth by some of our former and current Supreme Court justices. That is your right. To dispute whether the founding fathers were in agreement with current policy we can only read their words. By publishing some of them, I hope to dispell ideas about these men being anti or non religious. Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Washington, Franklin were all men who believed in an Almighty God who was creator of the universe and who worked Providentially in the world.

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  09:14:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Washington, Franklin were all men who believed in an Almighty God who was creator of the universe and who worked Providentially in the world.


So what? Most everyone in those days, as today, was some kind of deist or theist. The fact remains that the government they fashioned neither promotes nor restricts the practice or non-practice of any religion. What other beliefs they may have professed is irrelevant.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  09:43:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar

Ok, since you need a point spelled out. These quotes show the active religious beliefs - the faith in God, if you will - of many of the forefathers in American history and how their faith affected the framing of our Constitution and laws. . . By publishing some of them, I hope to dispell ideas about these men being anti or non religious. Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Washington, Franklin were all men who believed in an Almighty God who was creator of the universe and who worked Providentially in the world.


Actually, Doomar, it seems that their views on God, the Constitution and this country were, at best, contradictory. For while you've posted lots of quotes about how so-and-so really liked his god, others here have posted quotes of the same person expressing something quite different. (Perhaps that's because we're looking at these quotes out of historical context-- Jefferson was probably actively thinking about the subject of God and Christianity for decades, and doubtlessly had different views at different times. He perhaps even vacillated between different points of view (our current dip-shit President would call that "flip-flopping") over time...)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  09:43:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Doomar:
I happen to agree more with the founders than many of you who agree with a more "modern" view as set forth by some of our former and current Supreme Court justices.


And that “modern” view is?

Lets cut to the chase. What Supreme Court rulings have put your knickers in a bind? What rulings have made it more difficult for you to practice your faith? Lets discuss those…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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