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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2005 : 09:52:49
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After reading filthy's reaction to Kil's "Verlch Song" I went to the Home Page here looking for guidelines for our discourse with each other. I was a bit relieved not to come up with much. I personally like being free to swear, joke, speak my mind, and lose my temper.
That having been said, I also feel we should govern ourselves to a certain degree.
So, I ask you all, what crosses "The Line"?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:06:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
After reading filthy's reaction to Kil's "Verlch Song" I went to the Home Page here looking for guidelines for our discourse with each other. I was a bit relieved not to come up with much. I personally like being free to swear, joke, speak my mind, and lose my temper.
That having been said, I also feel we should govern ourselves to a certain degree.
So, I ask you all, what crosses "The Line"?
I believe filthy's comment was a call to raise the level of discussion higher than the thread on verlch's song was going. I thought it was more appropriate to the humor folder and it was an outpouring of frustration with our resident font of illogic. It was a needed smack in the right direction.
"The line" is blurry at times. One must constantly question if what one is doing is just reaction on an emotional level or if it forwards the discussion. People are human and will digress. Warnings such as filthy's are sometimes necessary to call our attention to our actions. While you are free to express yourself freely, the course we take impacts ourselves as well as the target of our posts.
There are some cases which are clear.
1) directly threatening others with physical or financial harm.
2) berating a newbie because they are a newbie.
3) offers of illicit services such as drug deals, unregulated prostitution, or any other commonly illegal activities.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 01/13/2005 10:09:05 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:08:20 [Permalink]
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"The line" is drawn by the individual. It must be assumed that we are all reasonable folk, here. Therefore, the individual lines should not be all that far apart. And they are not, really. We all get along pretty well. The line that was crossed with the verlch song thread was my own and I there I stand. I think that that stand is perfectly reasonable, and I will certainly, even happily fight for it.
However, I am open to differing opinions -- as any skeptic should be.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 11:25:25 [Permalink]
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| filthy you have a right to your opinion. Personally I think your making a mountain out of a mole hill in this instance. I took it as intended, as a parody on creationist in general. The only way we will know is if Verlch speaks up. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:04:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I believe filthy's comment was a call to raise the level of discussion higher than the thread on verlch's song was going. I thought it was more appropriate to the humor folder and it was an outpouring of frustration with our resident font of illogic. It was a needed smack in the right direction.
That point interests me, Valiant Dancer, because I would have perceived it as more of a joke at verlch's expense had it been in the humor folder.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:12:10 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm of a slightly divided opinion on this issue.
Mockery and insults, just for the sake of insults and mockery is over the line, especially when its directed at individuals.
However, some mocking of claims, beliefs, or behavior (not individuals) is certainly ok, especially when the claim is outrageous.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:16:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I believe filthy's comment was a call to raise the level of discussion higher than the thread on verlch's song was going. I thought it was more appropriate to the humor folder and it was an outpouring of frustration with our resident font of illogic. It was a needed smack in the right direction.
That point interests me, Valiant Dancer, because I would have perceived it as more of a joke at verlch's expense had it been in the humor folder.
I thought it might take the seriousness off of it in the humor folder. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 12:50:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I thought it might take the seriousness off of it in the humor folder.
I understand. That makes perfect sense to me, it's just not how I would have perceived it myself. Quite frankly, it's a bit daunting to me to realize how easy it is to give offense unintentionally. It is my hope that the quality of postings will not be impacted by this most recent controversy. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 13:27:02 [Permalink]
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First off, it pleases me that I have sparked this discussion.
I didn't put it in the humor folder because my song is a response to a brand of creationist. On our site, Verlch is the man. I wonder though, if I had done this as prose and not in a humorous way, would anyone have been bothered? To me, that question goes to the heart of what we are discussing. (At least where it concerns the post that sparked this discussion.) We have all been pretty brutal at times in response to what we regard as ridiculous from our point of view. Also, if I had written a funny song in response to a particular post, would that have been more acceptable than a more general song in response to a lot of posts?
I think back to the list of Verlch's claims that Dave posted. Was that not done, at least in part, for effect?
I guess what I'm asking, is the line drawn at substance, form and style or some point in between?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 13:44:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I guess what I'm asking, is the line drawn at substance, form and style or some point in between?
I'd like to know that, too.
Also, does a person get "credit" for nature of their other postings? In other words, does a member with a history of fairness get the benefit of the doubt? |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 13:55:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wendy:
Also, does a person get "credit" for nature of their other postings? In other words, does a member with a history of fairness get the benefit of the doubt?
Ask Filthy...  |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 14:09:08 [Permalink]
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I think I just did. 
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 17:48:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I think back to the list of Verlch's claims that Dave posted. Was that not done, at least in part, for effect?
Actually, that list was, at first, entirely for effect, as I didn't expect verlch to answer anything (and I wasn't disappointed). The real point to the whole thing was just to say what was in the first three sentences of that post, but the list itself, once I created it, was a rather astounding illustration of the point I was making.
And then, of course, there was this monster post, which probably prompted about as much "that crossed the line" sorta feelings as Kil's recent song has so far. And perhaps from the same people. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 06:10:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I think that that stand is perfectly reasonable, and I will certainly, even happily fight for it.
Then stay and do that! Yours is a unique and valuable point of view, filthy. Please stay and hold the line.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 15:13:17 [Permalink]
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I thought maybe this was why filthy wanted to leave but the whole thread was acceptable when verlch weighed in as the good sport. I do think it might have been a better poem/song if the subject matter were not attributed to any person.
However, as I posted in my response to filthy's post in the announcement folder, I have read some responses that I felt were a bit more attacks on persons than attacks on beliefs and ideas.
I don't like to see comments like admonitions to read basic math texts or similar condescending instructions. It's one thing to say, "I've tried to explain, you don't seem to get it", and another to say, "Here's a science 101 text, go read it". It may seem like a subtle difference but it reads differently when it's directed at you.
I tried to address this on another board but got no where. In reality, there is a science of communication that says condescending statements close communication channels.
I could say more but my son wants to play his latest on line game and he's bugging me. I'll see what other say later and continue if it seems useful. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 19:53:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I don't like to see comments like admonitions to read basic math texts or similar condescending instructions. It's one thing to say, "I've tried to explain, you don't seem to get it", and another to say, "Here's a science 101 text, go read it". It may seem like a subtle difference but it reads differently when it's directed at you.
It also reads differently if the person in question has directly asked about where to go to learn the science. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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