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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2005 : 08:43:15 [Permalink]
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Again, I refer to the defintion that Albert Ellis used:
"(1)belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe; (2) expression of this belief in conduct and ritual."
That is never a positive thing. That does not mean that good people who believe in god(s) never do good or bad things in the name of religion. They would do good or bad things regardless of religion. That does not mean that these people don't think it's a good thing, which of course they do. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
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Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 08:45:08 [Permalink]
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That's a separate argument which I'll try to find time for later. However, the belief that prayer heals does exist, and that is not a good thing.
quote:
That is a reality that you fail to recognize and continue to rashly generalize "prayer heals" to all religions and subsects.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
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Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 10:22:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
That's a separate argument which I'll try to find time for later. However, the belief that prayer heals does exist, and that is not a good thing.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
That is a reality that you fail to recognize and continue to rashly generalize "prayer heals" to all religions and subsects.
[/quote]
It does exist and is a bad thing. It is not universal. And that is rash generalization. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 10:24:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Again, I refer to the defintion that Albert Ellis used:
"(1)belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe; (2) expression of this belief in conduct and ritual."
That is never a positive thing. That does not mean that good people who believe in god(s) never do good or bad things in the name of religion. They would do good or bad things regardless of religion. That does not mean that these people don't think it's a good thing, which of course they do.
Again, Albert Ellis uses a definition which does not accurately describe all religions or subsects. Application of this definition to the whole is invalid. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 11:10:50 [Permalink]
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You are agreeing with me and at the same time saying that it is a rash generalization. I lost you.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
That's a separate argument which I'll try to find time for later. However, the belief that prayer heals does exist, and that is not a good thing.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
That is a reality that you fail to recognize and continue to rashly generalize "prayer heals" to all religions and subsects.
[/quote]
It does exist and is a bad thing. It is not universal. And that is rash generalization.
[/quote] |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 11:12:03 [Permalink]
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Right. Some people say that religion is defined as "your point of view." That's why there are atheist churches in texas. That's beside the point. What I am talking about is that definition that I posted, which is the most common usage of the term.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
Again, I refer to the defintion that Albert Ellis used:
"(1)belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe; (2) expression of this belief in conduct and ritual."
That is never a positive thing. That does not mean that good people who believe in god(s) never do good or bad things in the name of religion. They would do good or bad things regardless of religion. That does not mean that these people don't think it's a good thing, which of course they do.
Again, Albert Ellis uses a definition which does not accurately describe all religions or subsects. Application of this definition to the whole is invalid.
[/quote] |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 12:34:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
You are agreeing with me and at the same time saying that it is a rash generalization. I lost you.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
That's a separate argument which I'll try to find time for later. However, the belief that prayer heals does exist, and that is not a good thing.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
That is a reality that you fail to recognize and continue to rashly generalize "prayer heals" to all religions and subsects.
[/quote]
It does exist and is a bad thing. It is not universal. And that is rash generalization.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I agree that the phenomenon of belief that "prayer heals" exists within some subsects of Christianity and a few other religions subsects and that that concept is bad. I am pointing out that the idea is not universal to all religions and subsects. This makes any such charge of religion as a whole forwarding "prayer heals" as overbroad and a rash generalization. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2005 : 12:40:24 [Permalink]
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I think that anyone that believes that Jesus healed people believe that prayer can heal. That's a large subset of Christianity.
Most people who believe in the supernatural believe that the supernatural affects the real world. Common usage of the term "religion" includes only those that believe those things.
You think that religion means something else, and I can't argue with that. That's fine. You want it to mean green apples, have at it. However, when you talk to most people about religion, that's what they think you're talking about.
Even if it wasn't common usage, that is the term that I am using for the purposes of this discussion, and what Ellis used for his essay. The more I read his essay, the more I have to say it is well-written.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 10:41:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I think that anyone that believes that Jesus healed people believe that prayer can heal. That's a large subset of Christianity.
Most people who believe in the supernatural believe that the supernatural affects the real world. Common usage of the term "religion" includes only those that believe those things.
You think that religion means something else, and I can't argue with that. That's fine. You want it to mean green apples, have at it. However, when you talk to most people about religion, that's what they think you're talking about.
Even if it wasn't common usage, that is the term that I am using for the purposes of this discussion, and what Ellis used for his essay. The more I read his essay, the more I have to say it is well-written.
People who believe Jesus healed believe that Jesus healed by being the Avatar of God/Messiah/special dispensation as an extention of God, not through prayer. The majority of Christianity does not believe prayer heals, but that Jesus performed "miracles" by viture of being the messiah. Your definition of Christianity does not take this into account and your view runs along the lines of Ellis's views. These views are rash generalizations and are not universal.
That the essay is well written does not mitigate the constructral problems of the premises.
Comon usage for religion means a set of ceremonies and mysticism which make up a belief system pertaining to an afterlife. Creation myths are common to many religions. It doesn't mean that the adherents take it as absolute fact, rather a parable understandable to an ancient people. Ellis and you have focused on a particular aspect of some religions which can be destructive and apply it to all religions. (Buddhaism does not have such a higher power, but is still called a religion.)
Belief in the supernatural does not always have a physical manifestation component. A lot of it is a methodology to change behaviors within the adherent to one more closely following the moral code of the particular religion.
I still find the scope of your arguement overbroad. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 11:18:01 [Permalink]
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Again, I appreciate your comments. I'll give that all some thought.
Do Alcoholics Anonymous members believe that god changed them, or do they believe that they changed themselves to adhere to some moral code? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
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Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 12:08:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Again, I appreciate your comments. I'll give that all some thought.
Do Alcoholics Anonymous members believe that god changed them, or do they believe that they changed themselves to adhere to some moral code?
AA uses the concept of a higher power to effect a personal change to adhere to a moral code against imbibing alcohol. They may believe that their higher power helped them to change, but they take some credit for changing.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 12:34:31 [Permalink]
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| "Some credit," which means that god himself reached in and changed something? |
I know the rent is in arrears
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It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 13:06:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
"Some credit," which means that god himself reached in and changed something?
Not directly. "God", in this case, inspired change. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 13:27:44 [Permalink]
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| How does god "inspire" change in their minds, do you think? Do they think the idea of god inspires them, or does god do something? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
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Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 14:48:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
How does god "inspire" change in their minds, do you think? Do they think the idea of god inspires them, or does god do something?
Unfortunately, this leads directly to the realm of philosophy. AA does not make any comment on this subject nor does the personal nature of adherent to percieved divinity really lend itself to real study. Some would claim that God did "something" though they would be hard pressed to articulate what that "something" was. Some would say that their own one way communication (actually self examination) with the devine inspired them to make the change.
For myself, if I really analyze it, this form of inspiration is a conscious communication with the unconscious mind. Whether we use direct symbology or call that part of ourselves "God", it still fulfills the same goal.
I think that "inspiration" is too nebulous of a term to be able to meaningfully continue. Artists recieve inspiration from a myriad of sources, yet we cannot articulate what it is about the source that changes their minds or appeals to them. |
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