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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2005 : 06:30:49 [Permalink]
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Everything has a natural explanation. The moon is not a god but a great rock and the sun a hot rock.
#8213; Anaxagorus, ca. 475 BC
Dark ages will do that to ya... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 11:02:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
for the speed of light issue check that link it has the specific verses and calculations based on it :
http://www.islamicity.com/Science/960703A.SHTML
Right, checking it...
From http://www.islamicity.com/Science/960703A.SHTML :
quote:
"GOD rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the earth. Then this affair travels, to Him (i.e. through the whole universe) in one day, where the measure is one thousand years of your reckoning"(32:5)
the Quranic expression "of your reckoning" leaves no doubt as to our understanding of the year as the lunar year.
The verse begins with a reference to a certain "cosmic affair" which GOD creates and commands. This affair travels, permanently through the whole universe between the heavens and the Earth, so speedily that it crosses in ONE DAY a maximum distance in space equivalent to that which the moon passes during ONE THOUSAND LUNAR YEAR (i.e. during 12000 Sidereal months). The question which pause.; itself now is: what could this cosmic affair be? and what is its greatest velocity as expressed in this Quranic equation?.
They never explain how they can read out from the Quraan verse (highlighted by me) that it is the distance travelled by the moon that must be used as the reference...
It seems to me it is grabbed out of the blue, just because the year is defined by 12 sideral orbits of the moon. Is the islamic month defined by siderial or synodic month by Quraan definition?
They even tie in this with a Quraan verse which is familliar to those who read the Bible:
quote:
"A day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning" (22:47)
Then they throw around stuff like gravitational fields causing relativistic effects, as a red herring.
quote:
Since the presence of the sun changes the geometrical properties of space and time , we must screen out its gravitational effect on the earth moon system according to the validity condition of the second postulate of special relativity, i.e. we must only consider the lunar geocentric motion without the heliocentric motion of the earth-moon system. Thus a velocity component VO=V cosO representing the net orbital velocity of the moon as shown in fig. (1) is introduced for calculating the net length L of the lunar orbit assuming a stationary earth.
Aparently, the Sun's orbit around the galaxy can be ignored becasue the Sun's gravity well will through relativistic effects negate it. That is just an idiotic ad hoc attempt to hide the sun's absolute speed (which definitly have a huge impact on the calculations), especially since earlier they quote a verse stating that the Sun's orbit is indeed important:
quote:
"GOD is the ONE who created the night, the day, the sun, and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion" (21:33).
(bold emphasis by Dr. Mabuse)
The whole page is just an excercise in Ad Hoc explanation, worthy of Answers In Genesis, and Kent Hovind. But I'm impressed they managed to get together so much calculations to get the perfect fit to 'C'.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 13:50:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
for the speed of light issue check that link it has the specific verses and calculations based on it :
http://www.islamicity.com/Science/960703A.SHTML
Right, checking it...
I looked into this myth before as well. It was brought up on this forum or another one. The claim is unsubstantiated. |
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 14:01:08 [Permalink]
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Is the islamic month defined by siderial or synodic month by Quraan definition?
we have two sources for directions we follow .. the Quraan .. and the ''Hadith'' or sayings of Prophet Muhammad mercy upon him , I guess you know that Muslims fast month of Ramadan ..and when Muslims asked prophet Muhammad about when to start and end fasting he said : '' fast when you see the birth of the moon and break your fasting when you see it's birth again '' , birth means the begining of a new month so it was taken from here . plus that Arab's at that time were not very familiar with christian calender so they used the moon for their month calculations. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 14:17:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
[br.
quote:
.. and while people beleived that it was simply mentioned in our Quraan that earth's shape is something like the egg .. not a perfect sphere but it has an ovalatory shape ,
That sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on that? (preferly with quotes from the Quraan?)
quote:
and it's not just that example .. there are many other examples like that speed of light is calculated relative to earth's speed of rotation around it's axis
I'd like to know how this works out too. This is revolutionary discovery (to me at least).
I'm going to check out that link.
for the speed of light issue check that link it has the specific verses and calculations based on it :
http://www.islamicity.com/Science/960703A.SHTML
for the earth's ovoid shape :
In chapter (Surah)number 79 in the Quraan , 26th_ verse God said(It's the meaning not the actual Arabic words ) :
79:26] This is a lesson for the reverent.
[79:27] Are you more difficult to create than the skies? He(God) constructed it.
[79:28] He raised its masses, and perfected it.
[79:29] He made its night dark, and brightened its morn.
[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.
[79:31] From it, He produced its own water and pasture.
[79:32] He established the mountains.
and u can check it from any Arabic/English copy of the Quraan .
regards
[79.26] Most surely there is in this a lesson to him who fears.
[79.27] Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it.
[79.28] He raised high its height, then put it into a right good state.
[79.29] And He made dark its night and brought out its light.
[79.30] And the earth, He expanded it after that.
[79.31] He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage.
[79.32] And the mountains, He made them firm,
M. K. Shakir translation of the Qu'ran.
I prefer this translation to the George Sales/Sir E. Dennison Ross translations for accuracy and context.
Ancient peoples using the moon to mark the passage of time is nothing new. That Muslims did not use the calendar of Christianity because the Christians were using the Julian Calendar (later the Gregorian calendar in the 1750's). They also weren't using the Hebraic calendars. Every society at that time had a different way of determining a calendar. That the early Muslims used a standard calendar as dictated by their region is neither surprising nor unique.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 15:35:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
Is the islamic month defined by siderial or synodic month by Quraan definition?
we have two sources for directions we follow .. the Quraan .. and the ''Hadith'' or sayings of Prophet Muhammad mercy upon him , I guess you know that Muslims fast month of Ramadan ..and when Muslims asked prophet Muhammad about when to start and end fasting he said : '' fast when you see the birth of the moon and break your fasting when you see it's birth again '' , birth means the begining of a new month so it was taken from here . plus that Arab's at that time were not very familiar with christian calender so they used the moon for their month calculations.
Then the site you pointed to does wrong in using siderial month for calculating light speed. And that just the beginning. I could pick apart that site further if I sat down a while with paper, pen, and my science calculator. But at this point I see no reason. I've already pointed out faluty assumptions that throws the calculations off. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 18:45:09 [Permalink]
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| The site appears to be chock-full of poor apologetics. It seems to claim, for example, that the Qu'ran describes photosynthesis, when all the example verses speak of is a "green substance." It just gets worse from there. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 23:34:16 [Permalink]
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So, now we have a Muslim apologist? Kinda cool.
How many skeptic forums can claim such a person as a member?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 08:26:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
So, now we have a Muslim apologist? Kinda cool.
How many skeptic forums can claim such a person as a member?
Duaa and I have been exchanging some private messages. I don't think he'll object to me revealing what translation he's using.
http://www.quran-islam.org/93.html
This translation is by Dr. Rashad Khalifa. His version is not accepted by a majority of Muslims. Khalifa was murdered in 1990.
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Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 08:47:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Khalifa was murdered in 1990.
Who would do such a thing? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 09:19:15 [Permalink]
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In reply to valiant ,
Dr Rshaed's efforts of translation up till now from what I read are acceptable to me .. I don't know that he has been killed by I would be thankful if you tell me why some Muslim's didn't accept his translations ?
regards |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 10:36:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
In reply to valiant ,
Dr Rshaed's efforts of translation up till now from what I read are acceptable to me .. I don't know that he has been killed by I would be thankful if you tell me why some Muslim's didn't accept his translations ?
regards
Wikipedia suggests that he was stabbed to death in his Tuscon mosque by a Pakistani extremist for his translation of the Qu'ran. Specifically because he claimed to be a prophet of Allah and could provide a deeper meaning to his translation. Claiming to be a prophet of Allah after the life of Mohammed is considered heresy.
A majority of Muslims do not accept Khalifa's translations because of the percieved heresy. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
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