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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:08:15 [Permalink]
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*ahem* Back to topic, shall we?
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"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:28:04 [Permalink]
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| How was this topic ever "on topic"? All we have is a wall painting from france which was never shown to have anything to do with evolution. It is photoshop murdered to sort of almost resemble the painting but other than that all I see is a crude gulf stream representation and a decent 14,000 year old painting. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:33:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
How was this topic ever "on topic"? All we have is a wall painting from france which was never shown to have anything to do with evolution. It is photoshop murdered to sort of almost resemble the painting but other than that all I see is a crude gulf stream representation and a decent 14,000 year old painting.
True. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 09:22:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
How was this topic ever "on topic"? All we have is a wall painting from france which was never shown to have anything to do with evolution. It is photoshop murdered to sort of almost resemble the painting but other than that all I see is a crude gulf stream representation and a decent 14,000 year old painting.
Better than just decent Papa; I would say masterful and on a par with the best done today. And when you consider the conditions the artist(s) worked under, and the tools available, one might go so far as to say, genius.
I wonder what his/their status in the group might have been. At a guess I'd say maybe a shaman or a priest of some sort.
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Come on! Hobbit finds ring, hobbit loses ring, hobbit finds ring again and destroys it is one of the oldest plots around. Sheesh!
Siberia, Dave failed to mention that this one and variations on it, is probably the most successful plot in history. Write it!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 14:06:35 [Permalink]
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In reply to Dude's post 2/7/2005
I think you misunderstood me that I am discussing scientific details
what I wanted to say that there's a faith that we Muslims beleive in .. I didn't want to make it a relegious discussion but I think more relegious basis clarification for my faith would clarify the points I mentioned ...
We(Muslims) beleive that :
God(Allah) created us .. we were not the result of some evoulution or biological burst .. there's no biological burst that results in such a compicated human brain that can think, analyse and adapt like humans .. having creatures with such intellegence like us LOGICALLY leads to the beleive that there's a higher power with way more intellegence that created us which is God .
In Our Holy book which we beleive that It's God's words .. God teached us how he created us .. how he created Adam and Eve as Humans directly ... so what we trust is that the Creator is the only one who knows how he created .. so when he tells us that something has happened then it has happened .. It's not a blind faith and it's not that we diminish the credibility of science .. but when there's a contradiction in what God told us and what we discovered by science then there's an error in our analysis ....let me ask you for how many years people beleived that the earth is flat ..? many many years .. and while people beleived that it was simply mentioned in our Quraan that earth's shape is something like the egg .. not a perfect sphere but it has an ovalatory shape ,
and it's not just that example .. there are many other examples like that speed of light is calculated relative to earth's speed of rotation around it's axis ..and all that in Our Holy book '' Quraan '' which is God's words ..
all what I wanted to say is that we Muslims have a trusted reference of facts which .. during our scientific analysis find something mismatching these facts then it's a sign telling us : '' fix ur ways and repeat the experiment '' and we trust this reference because it has proved it's credibility ..
this is a link for some of scientific facts mentioned in our '' Quraan''
http://www.55a.net/en/miracles/a030.php
please notice the green fields on the side of the page.
Regards
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 14:18:35 [Permalink]
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| Interesting Duaa, however just you (or a million muslims) asserting the factuality of the Quraan, means absolutely nothing to us. The devil is in the details we say. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 14:33:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The devil is in the details we say.
I am sorry but I can't get what u mean .. if u mean that i didnot reply with enough scientific details it's because I am not specialized .. u can check the link I mentioned for accurate scientific analysis
regards |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 15:22:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
having creatures with such intellegence like us LOGICALLY leads to the beleive that there's a higher power with way more intellegence that created us which is God .
You really don't understand logic at all, do you? Well, don't feel bad. Most of you (religious people) don't.
Just give me an explanation of HERVs that is consistent with the evidence and provides a logically sound alternative to common descent.
Hint: "goddidit" is not an acceptable answer without evidence to support it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 17:51:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
We(Muslims) beleive that :
God(Allah) created us .. we were not the result of some evoulution or biological burst .. there's no biological burst that results in such a compicated human brain that can think, analyse and adapt like humans .. having creatures with such intellegence like us LOGICALLY leads to the beleive that there's a higher power with way more intellegence that created us which is God .
Just saying that it is your LOGICAL conclusion, does not mean anything. Not to us, because our logical conclusion is that you are wrong in your assumption. State your reason for your conclusion: a logical disposition that proves your point.
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In Our Holy book which we beleive that It's God's words...
...and this is a classic circular reasoning (which is found in practically all religions). The Book says it is the word of God, and that it is true. But there is no independent verification that it is so. Therefore, trusting in it is illogical.
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It's not a blind faith and it's not that we diminish the credibility of science .. but when there's a contradiction in what God told us and what we discovered by science then there's an error in our analysis
In our scientific analysis? No I don't believe so. Interpreting the result of any experiment to force-fit the conclusion with the teaching of any holy book is un-scientific.
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...let me ask you for how many years people beleived that the earth is flat ..? many many years
That is a myth. Philosophers posed the idea that the earth was round long before CE.
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.. and while people beleived that it was simply mentioned in our Quraan that earth's shape is something like the egg .. not a perfect sphere but it has an ovalatory shape ,
That sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on that? (preferly with quotes from the Quraan?)
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and it's not just that example .. there are many other examples like that speed of light is calculated relative to earth's speed of rotation around it's axis
I'd like to know how this works out too. This is revolutionary discovery (to me at least).
I'm going to check out that link.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 01:14:31 [Permalink]
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Eratosthenes calculation of the earth circumference : 205 BCE
Muhammads revelations wich led to the Quran : around 610 CE
The shape and size of the earth was known to man at least 800 years before the Quran was created. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:33:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
[br.
quote:
.. and while people beleived that it was simply mentioned in our Quraan that earth's shape is something like the egg .. not a perfect sphere but it has an ovalatory shape ,
That sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on that? (preferly with quotes from the Quraan?)
quote:
and it's not just that example .. there are many other examples like that speed of light is calculated relative to earth's speed of rotation around it's axis
I'd like to know how this works out too. This is revolutionary discovery (to me at least).
I'm going to check out that link.
for the speed of light issue check that link it has the specific verses and calculations based on it :
http://www.islamicity.com/Science/960703A.SHTML
for the earth's ovoid shape :
In chapter (Surah)number 79 in the Quraan , 26th_ verse God said(It's the meaning not the actual Arabic words ) :
79:26] This is a lesson for the reverent.
[79:27] Are you more difficult to create than the skies? He(God) constructed it.
[79:28] He raised its masses, and perfected it.
[79:29] He made its night dark, and brightened its morn.
[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.
[79:31] From it, He produced its own water and pasture.
[79:32] He established the mountains.
and u can check it from any Arabic/English copy of the Quraan .
regards
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 03:18:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Duaa
[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.
Except the earth is not "egg-shaped." It is slightly ovoid, but we only know that because of super-precise instrumentation. It's definitely a sphere, almost imperceptibly out of round (indeed, perfect roundness is all but impossible). You ever see a picture of the Earth taken from space? It looks nothing like an egg. Eggs are fatter on one end than the other. The Earth isn't--it's a sphere.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/10/2005 03:20:16 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 03:36:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Except the earth is not "egg-shaped."
Which eggs are you talking about?
Bird eggs are usually not "eart-shaped", but others are.
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Duaa
New Member
Egypt
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 05:02:38 [Permalink]
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| forgive me but egg-shaped was the nearest expression for the arabic word ... the arabic word is pronounced like that '' Dahaya'' which means : ''non perfect sphere '', the actual arabic word that corresponds to an egg is '' baydah'' but there is no accurate english translation for ''Dahaya'' |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 06:15:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Except the earth is not "egg-shaped."
Which eggs are you talking about?
Bird eggs are usually not "eart-shaped", but others are.
Many if not most turtle eggs are pretty much round and are eaten throughout the world. I like 'em myself. Could be the reference is to that.
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Eratosthenes calculation of the earth circumference : 205 BCE
Muhammads revelations wich led to the Quran : around 610 CE
The shape and size of the earth was known to man at least 800 years before the Quran was created.
I did not know that the circumference of the earth was calculated that early.
Edited to add that Eratosthenes was a very interesting individual.
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Eratosthenes was born in Cyrene which is now in Libya in North Africa. His teachers included the scholar Lysanias of Cyrene and the philosopher Ariston of Chios who had studied under Zeno, the founder of the Stoic school of philosophy. Eratosthenes also studied under the poet and scholar Callimachus who had also been born in Cyrene. Eratosthenes then spent some years studying in Athens.
The library at Alexandria was planned by Ptolemy I Soter and the project came to fruition under his son Ptolemy II Philadelphus. The library was based on copies of the works in the library of Aristotle. Ptolemy II Philadelphus appointed one of Eratosthenes' teachers Callimachus as the second librarian. When Ptolemy III Euergetes succeeded his father in 245 BC and he persuaded Eratosthenes to go to Alexandria as the tutor of his son Philopator. On the death of Callimachus in about 240 BC, Eratosthenes became the third librarian at Alexandria, in the library in a temple of the Muses called the Mouseion. The library is said to have contained hundreds of thousands of papyrus and vellum scrolls.
And:
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Eratosthenes made a surprisingly accurate measurement of the circumference of the Earth. Details were given in his treatise On the measurement of the Earth which is now lost. However, some details of these calculations appear in works by other authors such as Cleomedes, Theon of Smyrna and Strabo. Eratosthenes compared the noon shadow at midsummer between Syene (now Aswan on the Nile in Egypt) and Alexandria. He assumed that the sun was so far away that its rays were essentially parallel, and then with a knowledge of the distance between Syene and Alexandria, he gave the length of the circumference of the Earth as 250,000 stadia.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/10/2005 06:25:04 |
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Topic Locked
