|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2005 : 17:36:26
|
During the chat on Sunday January 23rd a few of us, Dr. Mabuse, Filthy, and Storm discussed the perception of ghosts.
There is no doubt that people percieve ghosts, however, I (Dr. Mabuse) proposed that "ghosts are in the mind of the Beholder".
Filthy agreed.
Personally I think that ghost sighting is the mind playing tricks on you.
Storm, since you didn't concur with the rest of us that ghosts are a figment of our imagination, would you like to elaborate on your position?
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 19:11:55 [Permalink]
|
My viewpoint on ghosts are different for different situations.
There is no doubt that some sightings are tricks of the mind, light, etc...
but some sightings are not.... look at "classifications of ghosts"
We have been debating for months now as to what role if any energy plays in contributing to ghostly phenomenon...
That is decaying energy...
As we learned through chatting about false memory the brain is vast and complex... maybe when this vast and complex system breaks down upon death, ghostly phenomenon is produced... pieces of this vast complex system... get imprinted onto the environment... then when the conditions are right another vast and complex living person picks up on this decaying energy and so produces the phenomenon....
So in essence yes ghosts are in the minds of the beholder... but in some cases I belive it is because of the interaction between a dying vast complex system and a living vast complex system that we find ghosts...
Well Doc I hope this is what I got across last night when we talked.. My mind is not as focused as it was last night... If you need to me to elaborate more.. well then just look at past posts of mine... or just ask.... |
 |
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 19:34:04 [Permalink]
|
I believe that ALL ghostly phenomena result from some sort of misperception; whether it be totally imagined, an optical or auditory illusion, or faulty sound/video equipment.
No evidence or reasonable hypothesis to suggest that any such entities as ghosts exist in reality has ever been put forward, on this site or elsewhere.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/24/2005 20:19:44 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 20:14:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
We have been debating for months now as to what role if any energy plays in contributing to ghostly phenomenon...
Actually Storm, what we have been trying to do is convince you to learn about energy.
It seems that the effort has been more or less wasted.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 22:23:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
My viewpoint on ghosts are different for different situations.
This, I think, is an indication pointing to the mind playing tricks on you.
Sound always comes from a virbating object. There is no other way to produce the perception of sound. Images comes from photons hitting the retina of the eye. There is no other way to get visual input.
But we can remember both, because it's stored in the brain, hence we can conjure images. When dreaming, parts of the mind makes other parts of the mind see and hear things that aren't there, and that has happened/can happen/can't possibly happen.
I propose that it is very unlikely that several independent events can produce the same effect. I find it more likely that the mind is trying to make sense of some sensory input that wasn't enough to interpret, so the mind starts filling in the blanks on it's own in order to create something that makes sense.
quote:
There is no doubt that some sightings are tricks of the mind, light, etc...
but some sightings are not.... look at "classifications of ghosts"
Right, so we're almost back to square one. Can you please post a list of "classifications of ghosts". Preferably in bulleted points, with enough description so we all can agree what you mean by the different classifications. You are supposed to be one of the expersts on ghosts.
Or please post a link to a site with a nice table, so we might read the definitions from there. But it would be best if you posted it here. In order to discuss, we must agree upon the defifitions of the words we are to use.
quote:
We have been debating for months now as to what role if any energy plays in contributing to ghostly phenomenon...
Yes, and we've come nowhere, because we skeptics have always thought that you meant Energy (with capital 'E'). Energy as we define it today in scientific terms.
It is obvious to me now that you are not talking about that kind of energy, but something else.
A psychic energy of some kind. (Energy that doesn't interact as scientists have come to expect)
quote:
That is decaying energy...
Ok, I don't know anything about psychic energy to agree or disagree. You'll have to come up with a way to test for the presense of this energy. I don't believe it exist, but I'm prepared to change my mind if you can device a scientific way to measure it. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 01:17:33 [Permalink]
|
I not have seen any evidence of ghosts, nor do I have any plausible premise that leaves me to believe ghosts are anything other than persons' abnormal interpretations of normal occurrences. But I thought I might mention some particular phenomena involving Energy and some other observations about the Universe that do at least show all is not as it seems.
There is dark matter, for example. Light has no effect or interaction with dark matter, yet gravity does. There is also dark energy which I know even less about, but it is an energy source which does not play by all the rules of physics as we currently understand them.
And there is also a dimension of time. If one could travel faster than light, one theoretically would be able to at least move back in time. If you can move back in time and the present continues to exist, then the future would exist relative to the time one went back into. Some see this as possibly indicating all time already exists, past present and future. It is a dimension we cannot travel in currently. You can speculate that all time does or does not exist but I believe we currently cannot say for sure.
Then there is current string theory which requires an 11 dimension world. Whether it is exactly correct or way off base, the idea there are tiny curled up dimensions at every point in space has wide acceptance as at least possible.
My point in all this isn't to support Storm's conclusions about energy or ghosts. But it is important to keep in mind, the Universe still has many mysteries yet to be discovered. There may very well be all sorts of phenomena we have no concept of today.
Storm however, I think has erred in interpreting whatever she or others have experienced. For example, I cannot say a sentient spirit whisked past me because I felt a wind*. Even if that wind was inexplicable because I was in a closed room, all I can say is I experienced an inexplicable wind.
In order to draw the kind of conclusions Storm is drawing, there has to be more than just one's imagination about what the wind* was. Even if you have some hypothesis that the mind has an energy form we have not recognized, you have to show that hypothesis is more than just an idea. And you have to show that energy source exists outside of the body or brain. I don't think anyone has come even remotely close to doing that other than near death experiences. But NDEs have a much more plausible explanation and can even be demonstrated in those G force testing machines which re-create them.
To believe in ghosts is similar to believing in gods. For the life of me, I fail to see how one can believe in either. To do so you have to suspend the normal path of having evidence support conclusions. Instead you just decide your mind knows these things innately, without evidence. You have to believe you know what that wind* was without any evidence to conclude upon. If I see a cat, from past experience, I know it is a cat. But if wind occurs in a closed room, what possible past experience tells you that wind* was a ghost?
*I have used the wind example to make a point. But it isn't meant to say wind is the phenomena which Storm has drawn conclusions. Also, Storm, it was easier to write about you than to you to make these points so forgive me if it sounds like I'm discussing you as if you weren't here. That wasn't my intent. |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 13:42:34 [Permalink]
|
One thing I must say great thread Doc!!!! This is right up my alley....
Sooo.... Where was I.....
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Sound always comes from a virbating object. There is no other way to produce the perception of sound. Images comes from photons hitting the retina of the eye. There is no other way to get visual input.
But we can remember both, because it's stored in the brain, hence we can conjure images.
what I am proposing is that upon decomposition, breakdown, of this vast system, our brain, these images that you speak of are set off into the environment, picked up by living individuals, like us, who then in turn replay it , thus producing what we call ghostly phenomenon....
So in essence yes it would be in the eye of the beholder...
I really have been working on my studies in Energy... Although Dude you might not think so but I expect that from you....
At first Dr. Mabuse when you mentioned the word Psychic energy I did not feel that was the word I would have used, but now as I read it and contemplated... it might very well just be the right word...
To be a psychic one perceives images of past and future events...
Ghosts usually are of past events, well mostly people who onced lived but are now dead..... But yet there are those ghosts of the living... oh well that is another subject altogether
quote:
Storm however, I think has erred in interpreting whatever she or others have experienced. For example, I cannot say a sentient spirit whisked past me because I felt a wind*. Even if that wind was inexplicable because I was in a closed room, all I can say is I experienced an inexplicable wind.
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I have never thought that a mere breeze in a room, even a closed room was or is a ghost....
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Can you please post a list of "classifications of ghosts".
Yes... Tonite...
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Ok, I don't know anything about psychic energy to agree or disagree. You'll have to come up with a way to test for the presense of this energy. I don't believe it exist, but I'm prepared to change my mind if you can device a scientific way to measure it.
Ahhh!!!! I agree!!! but how!!! That is the question at hand Dr. Mabuse!!!!
|
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 14:34:05 [Permalink]
|
Dr. Mabuse you are certainly a patient person.
|
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 02:39:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
...
I have never thought that a mere breeze in a room, even a closed room was or is a ghost....
I tried to tell you I was just using the wind as an example. You can substitute any phenomena in place of wind you want to, complex or simple.
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Ok, I don't know anything about psychic energy to agree or disagree. You'll have to come up with a way to test for the presense of this energy. I don't believe it exist, but I'm prepared to change my mind if you can device a scientific way to measure it.
Ahhh!!!! I agree!!! but how!!! That is the question at hand Dr. Mabuse!!!!
And if you haven't found the test, how have you come to the conclusions you have come to?
What you seem to be doing is accepting an hypothesis as if it had already been tested. You can hypothesize certain phenomena are generated by ghosts but unless you can test that idea, it remains only an idea, not fact, not real, just an idea. |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 08:11:35 [Permalink]
|
In a nutshell: only because you believe there's some sort of unknown energy working in a human brain, doesn't mean there is some sort of unknown energy working in a human brain.
And, personally, I believe that's just an attempt to give more relevance to human existence and life in general.
I, personally, think life's already miraculous enough, without the need of inventing eerie decaying energies to make it even more 'significant'. Life's mere existence is a blatant miracle (in the sense of something extraordinarely wonderful), whether provoked by gods or not, whether permanent or ephemeral, whether important, special or not is absolutely irrelevant to me. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 19:06:08 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
I, personally, think life's already miraculous enough, without the need of inventing eerie decaying energies to make it even more 'significant'. Life's mere existence is a blatant miracle (in the sense of something extraordinarely wonderful), whether provoked by gods or not, whether permanent or ephemeral, whether important, special or not is absolutely irrelevant to me.
Ahhh! but that is the difference between you and I Siberia these things are relevant to me... My existence....
No invention on this end.... |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 07:53:54 [Permalink]
|
| My existence is relevant. But I'm not so cocky as to think I'm more than some primitive mammal spewed out by accident. I don't care, either. In fact, I think it's even cooler this way. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 09:58:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Ok, I don't know anything about psychic energy to agree or disagree. You'll have to come up with a way to test for the presence of this energy. I don't believe it exist, but I'm prepared to change my mind if you can device a scientific way to measure it.
Ahhh!!!! I agree!!! but how!!! That is the question at hand Dr. Mabuse!!!!
It seems to be at least one of them.
By studying the scientific method, and how critical thinking applies to it, you will take some steps toward that goal. By knowing how the scientific method works, you will know what hypothesis will have scientific merit.
The application of Occam's Razor is something that should not be ignored either. Not just being able to recite it, but knowing how to apply it to known situations.
You agree that many ghost-sightings are really not ghosts, but misinterpretations of different kinds. From a bulk of sightings, natural explanations (and by natural I mean natural as the bulk of the scientific community defines it) had explained most of the sightings.
At first glance, all of them seems to be ghost.
At second glance, a cursory examination shows the cause to be natural: a tree branch rapping against the telephone line, or outer house wall.
At continued deeper examination reveal more and more sightings as natural: elaborate tricks set up by pranksters (remember how willing Ufologists are to believe that giant signs in the fields really are produced by aliens and not teenagers out to pull everyone's collective leg. How are you, Storm, different from them?)
The few still unexplained sightings only suggest to me that the investigation into natural explanations has not been thorough enough.
Anecdotal evidence is inadmissible in the court of science:
People can misinterpret the things they see.
People can see something that their brain interprets as ghost.
People can be making up stories in order to get attention.
The human brain has been shown to be very suggestible.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 17:33:59 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
You agree that many ghost-sightings are really not ghosts, but misinterpretations of different kinds. From a bulk of sightings, natural explanations (and by natural I mean natural as the bulk of the scientific community defines it) had explained most of the sightings
Well, I think there are different answers for different phenomenon.... Some hallucinations, some breezes, tricks of the light and yes fraud.... but as much as we find these answers to phenomenon there are those where there is no scientific awnsers, explanation.... Anomales.... we have talked of this before....
My proposition of decaying consciousness, of a vast complex system breaking down.... being able to be picked up by a living conscious person and then replayed, as a definition of a ghost is not that far fetched.... We know that when we die we go back into the environment... the circle of life..
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
remember how willing Ufologists are to believe that giant signs in the fields really are produced by aliens and not teenagers out to pull everyone's collective leg. How are you, Storm, different from them?)
You tell me how Doc? You continue to read my post, my interests.... What makes me different then those Ufologist... You have gotten to know me through my posts... through our chats... I know what makes me different....
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
People can see something that their brain interprets as ghost
Exactly!!!! that is what I am proposing in a way .....
|
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 18:17:01 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
My proposition of decaying consciousness, of a vast complex system breaking down.... being able to be picked up by a living conscious person and then replayed, as a definition of a ghost is not that far fetched....
How would this work Storm? What mechanisms can you cite that would account for energy behaving in manner? What keeps this energy localized? What human organ can you point to that would be capable of picking up this energy? These are all natural questions. If you can't answer them, then you aren't dealing with energy (which is bound by nature's laws).
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/27/2005 19:21:33 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
