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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:37:01 [Permalink]
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First off, this post is not my endorsement of smoking. But nicotine may have some possible and surprising benefits. See here:
http://www.jrussellshealth.com/smokbens.html
There is also a controversy over second hand smoke. (Penn and Teller did a Bullshit episode on this. I'm just pointing that out not as an argument from authority but that most people believe that the data is in and all the bad stuff is a fact and scientifically supported.)
quote:
The Scientific Debate Causes, Correlations, and Conclusions:
Let's focus for the moment on a EPA report that has generated the most recent controversy and may be the basis for future social policy regarding tobacco in this country. This report declared that environmental tobacco smoke was a known human lung carcinogen.
The EPA report was based on 30 epidemiological studies that looked for a link between tobacco smoke in the immediate environment and incidences of lung cancer. For the most part, disease rates among non-smoking women living with smokers were compared with disease rates among women living with those who did not smoke. While most of the studies found positive associations, none of them were conclusive by conventional statistical standards. So the EPA changed the statistical standards for this report. What does this mean?
Statistical Significance
When experimental studies are done, it is important that the data be analyzed in such a way so that chance can be accounted for. This is called statistical significance. Generally, scientists call an association between a variable (in this case a risk factor) and a disease significant if the probability that it occurred purely by chance is .05 or 5 percent or less (1). What the EPA actually did for their current report on environmental tobacco smoke was raise the level of significance to .10 or 10 percent which, in effect, doubles the odds of being wrong (2).
This, for all practical scientific purposes, throws doubt on any conclusions to be drawn from the studies. And even according to this looser definition of statistical significance, only one out of the eleven U.S. studies included in their report showed a link between environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer. If the conventional standard of statistical significance had been adhered to, as it should have been, none of the studies would have shown a significant association.
The EPA also excluded from its analysis a large study that did not find a statistically significant link between environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer that had been published in November 1992 in the American Journal of Public Health.
http://radicalacademy.com/smokesci.htm
For an overview of the whole issue start at:
http://radicalacademy.com/smokecontro.htm
I notice even in this thread a general acceptance that second hand smoke endangers the health of those around them. But it ain't necessarily so. I personally believe that there is a near hysteria surrounding the issue of second hand smoke that has lead to ridiculous laws like the banning of smoking in parks and on beaches.
Now, I am well aware of all the sites that are anti second hand smoke. I guess what I am suggesting is that there is a need to be cautious when regarding competing agendas and the science that is used in support of the debate on all sides. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 12:21:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Just out of sheer curiosity, are cigarrette tv ads banned in your country? Because they are in mine.
Yes, they are. Here's a link to the History of Cigarette Advertising.
quote:
1971 TV cigarette advertising banned. The ban was scheduled to begin on January 1, but was delayed for one day to allow a final glut of Super Bowl ads. Fairness Doctrine anti-smoking ads also disappear. Cigarette sales begin rebounding from their four year decline. RJ Reynolds' top-selling Winston brand, which had been challenged by Philip Morris' Marlboro for most of the 60s, is particularly hard-hit. While the Marlboro cowboy translates into print advertising beautifully, Winston's only identifier was the jingle, "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should." Winston focuses on promoting car racing, but steadily loses market share to Marlboro.
RJ Renolds is no longer a sponsor of NASCAR auto racing. They ended their association following the 2003 racing season. NASCAR Cup racing is now sponsored by NEXTEL, a wireless phone service. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 12:29:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Buying cigarettes is immoral? Come again?
My opinion of course, explained in my post.
Feel free to disagree.
Any comments on cigars?
Any smokable tobacco product is harmful to the user. It increases the risk of emphasemia and lung cancer. Smoking around other people, depending on how it's done, can be rude. Packaging in the US has, since the 70's, carried warning lables warning about the risks inherent to smoking. While smoking has an addictive property, it is no less addicting as alcohol. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 12:40:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Any comments on cigars?
I love cigars!
quote:
While smoking has an addictive property, it is no less addicting as alcohol.
Really? Have there really been any studies comparing the addictive properties of these?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:01:26 [Permalink]
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| Is there such a thing as an agreed on medical definition of addiction? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:03:30 [Permalink]
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http://www.fumento.com/bobdole.html
"But there is no scientific definition of addiction. Neither the Diagnostic and Statistical manual of the American Psychiatric Association nor the World Organization use the term addiction. This allows anybody who wants to use any definition they wish."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:20:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Any comments on cigars?
I love cigars!
quote:
While smoking has an addictive property, it is no less addicting as alcohol.
Really? Have there really been any studies comparing the addictive properties of these?
I don't think there have been comparative studies, but since both have an addictive quality I have equated them as such.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:26:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Is there such a thing as an agreed on medical definition of addiction?
I don't think so. I have equated the two based on the withdrawl symptoms of both. Alcohol has delirium tremmens. Nicotine has other withdrawl symptoms. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 00:02:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Is there such a thing as an agreed on medical definition of addiction?
I don't think so. I have equated the two based on the withdrawl symptoms of both. Alcohol has delirium tremmens. Nicotine has other withdrawl symptoms.
But there are other things to compare. Most smokers are addicted. Most people who drink do not get addicted.
The big lie was the tobacco companies claim smoking was a habit not an addiction.
There may be some grey areas in an addiction definition, but there are clear addictions and smoking is frequently one of them. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 06:52:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Any comments on cigars?
Any smokable tobacco product is harmful to the user. It increases the risk of emphasemia and lung cancer. Smoking around other people, depending on how it's done, can be rude. Packaging in the US has, since the 70's, carried warning lables warning about the risks inherent to smoking.
Cigars are a bit different. Does anybody get hooked on cigars?
Unless you support an immoral drug provider when buying them and respect others when you smoke them, I don't mind.
My beef with tobacco is not that people chose to do some thing that is bad for them.quote:
While smoking has an addictive property, it is no less addicting as alcohol.
I seriously doubt that. Reference?
Are there many tobacco users that are not addicted?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 14:02:52 [Permalink]
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| Just a suggestion, you folks might want to use the definition of 'addiction' that people in the business of treating addictions use: an addiction is a behaviour which a person continues despite negative consequences to health, job, family, etc. It's the "negative consequences" part that's important. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 14:33:47 [Permalink]
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| It's something that someone chooses to do repeatedly that has negative long-term consequences, then? It has little to do with whether or not there are so-called withdrawal symptoms? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 18:54:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's something that someone chooses to do repeatedly that has negative long-term consequences, then? It has little to do with whether or not there are so-called withdrawal symptoms?
Withdrawal may or may not have anything to do with it. Are there withdrawal symptoms from a gambling addiction? Because certainly there are gambling addicts - people who gamble despite already being in debt up to their eyeballs from previous bad wagers.
Hmmm... Obviously, there's a difference between gambling (or porn, or Internet) addictions and, say, the addictive qualities of nicotine. But despite the withdrawal complicating an addiction to heroin, nicotine or alcohol, the primary motivator still would seem to be the same: the behaviour in question causes a near-instantaneous reward in the brain. The threat of longer-term bad things happening - like nicotine withdrawal, seem (to me) to be less compelling than the reward.
Oh, and as far as the OP goes: except for certain circumstances (like race, sex, disability, or minimum wages), the owners of private companies can make whatever employment decisions they please. If an employer wishes to hire only those people (of either sex) who'll wear thong bikinis outside in Toronto in January, he/she is free to make that a condition of employment. Obviously, some conditions are going to offer easier ways to staff a company than others...
Fairfax County, VA, passed a law not too many years ago which said that its police officers were not allowed to smoke, either on the job or off. And shortly after I read that tidbit in the news, I saw an officer toss a butt out his patrol-car's window. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 03:36:19 [Permalink]
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| There are lots of ways to look at addictions, Dave. We could have a whole thread on how to define it. Addiction to smoking cigarettes is not, however, in a grey area, unless you are the tobacco executive pretending it's a 'habit' and not an addiction. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 07:22:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Addiction to smoking cigarettes is not, however, in a grey area...
Right, by the definition I offered, cigarettes are clearly addictive. The only question I've got about it is whether or not the instant reward from lighting up is a more powerful motivator to continue smoking than the "threat" of withdrawal symptoms - however minor - minutes or hours down the road. But that's not for this thread. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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