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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:26:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Ricky,
Some things are impossible and I prefer to masturbate in privet...
Thank you for burning that imagry into my mind.  |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 12:59:19 [Permalink]
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Sorry for my absence, work has taken up all my time. Well... that and events which might take place on Friday and Saturday night on a college campus (and of course during the Super bowl).
All examples I have seen here so far all include a premise. It could be as simple as, "in this universe," or something like, "physical laws can not change." So it would go against what I said in the first place, that it is impossible as long as it does not violate a given premise.
But then I started to think, what doesn't have a premise? I really can't come up with anything which doesn't have any premise what so ever. If everything has some sort of premise to it and is impossible, then this fits under my definition of impossible, and is therefore impossible. So I think what I may be doing is saying the same thing that Dude and Dave are, as well as others, but I just go a round about way of doing it.
Did that make any sense? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 02/09/2005 13:01:15 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 14:19:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
All examples I have seen here so far all include a premise. It could be as simple as, "in this universe," or something like, "physical laws can not change." So it would go against what I said in the first place, that it is impossible as long as it does not violate a given premise.
Well including a premise and contradicting a premise are different things.
quote:
But then I started to think, what doesn't have a premise? I really can't come up with anything which doesn't have any premise what so ever.
What about first principals like, mathematical axioms, 'self-evident' truth, or the 'God hypothesis'? quote:
If everything has some sort of premise to it and is impossible, then this fits under my definition of impossible, and is therefore impossible.
Only if it contradicts said premise.
I wonder if you'd agree that the following statement fairly sums up your position.
"Anything which is not logically contradictory is possible."
This statement avoids logical fallacies. However there are other logical possibilities which are not compatible with this statement, such as,
"Some things which are not logically contradictory are impossible."
Notice that although both statements avoid having a logical contradiction with their premise they are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be true.
Since the second statement is not logically contradictory, then if the first statement is true the second statement must be possible. But since the statements are contradictory they cannot both be true. Thus the first statement sets up a logical contradiction and cannot be true.
I should add that I only just thought this up (although I'm sure I'm not the first), so I may have missed something. |
| Edited by - dv82matt on 02/09/2005 14:22:31 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 09:40:42 [Permalink]
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A retraction,
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Since the second statement is not logically contradictory, then if the first statement is true the second statement must be possible. But since the statements are contradictory they cannot both be true. Thus the first statement sets up a logical contradiction and cannot be true.
This arguement is logically invalid  so the first "statement" remains unrefuted. I do, however, still maintain my belief that the second "statement" is more probable. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 11:28:15 [Permalink]
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You can make any claim become logically possible, and phrase it in a logically sound argument, depending on how you state your premise.
ex:
I have magic powers to transform living creatures into any form.
My power manifests through the use of coconut oil.
Therefore, it is possible that I can change a bull elephant into a butterfly by rubbing it with coconut oil.
IF the premise are true, then the argument is both valid and sound. Even if the premise are false, the argument is still sound, no logical contradiction al all.
The entire POINT is that we must use our own intellect to determine the truth value of the premise of any argument.
Most people, if trained in logic or not, can recognize logical inconsistency on an intuitive level. The problems arise not because they can't point at an unsound argument and tell you something is wrong, but because people accept untrue premises as being true.
The premise "nothing is impossible" is simply untrue. It is directly contradictory to everything we know about how the natural world works.
EVEN IF you accept a "many worlds" universe (a speculation that I enjoy a great deal by the way, it's a killer idea) and if the premise of different physical laws was true, then there would STILL BE impossible things, you'd just have to qualify the premise with "in universe UNV64953", because we know damn well that in THIS universe it's impossible to shit out an SUV or to transform elephants with magic coconut oil.
And, even if you accept the idea of an omnipotent god, there is atleast one thing that would be imnpossible. Free will. (we've had this particular discussion before, so please don't totally sidetrack the thread.. lol)
Again, "nothing is impossible" is simply a false statement.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 11:57:08 [Permalink]
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| Very well said and good point. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 14:21:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
And the possibility of an omnipotent god makes the possibility of just about everything else, possible.
And we come right back to the point. We have to use our intellect and observation to determine the truth value of any premise.
And again, even if there were an omnipotent god, there is STILL one thing that is impossible. Thus illustrating the false character of the premise "nothing is impossible".
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 15:35:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
When I say, "Nothing is impossible", what I mean is that we will never know what is impossible. We may know that something is impossible, but we will never be able to say for certain what that thing is.
Guys, remember "I think, therefore I am?"
It is impossible that you are not thinking. For you to even consider whether a statement is possibly possible requires thinking. Likewise, you could not comtemplate impossibility unless you were thinking. Therefore, it is impossible that you are not thinking in the instance of thinking about impossibility.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/10/2005 15:37:09 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 16:52:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
When I say, "Nothing is impossible", what I mean is that we will never know what is impossible. We may know that something is impossible, but we will never be able to say for certain what that thing is.
This is going in circles....
If you choose to believe that it is possible to shit out an SUV or transform an elephant into a butterfly with magical coconut oil... then there is probably nothing I can say that you will accept as evidence that your premise is flawed.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 16:27:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
This is going in circles....
If you choose to believe that it is possible to shit out an SUV or transform an elephant into a butterfly with magical coconut oil... then there is probably nothing I can say that you will accept as evidence that your premise is flawed.
Nobody is choosing to believe that that is possible! Those are not good examples of Ricky's point because a) they are overly complex, and b) they probably do violate logic.
Dude, you strike me as someone with a firm grip on the obvious. I agree with just about every argument you have presented that some things are impossible, but I think you may have misunderstood the point Ricky was making.
Ricky, I think there may be some frustration do to a perception of moving goalposts, for instance, you apear to grant basic logic at the start of the thread, but then later on you bring God into the picture. Presumably this would mean violations of logic are possible. We shouldn't simultaneously grant basic logic, and an entity that can violate basic logic. It reduces the argument to an absurdity. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 16:46:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
When I say, "Nothing is impossible", what I mean is that we will never know what is impossible. We may know that something is impossible, but we will never be able to say for certain what that thing is.
We know lots of things which are impossible. It is impossible for me to not have been born via C-section. It is impossible for me, at this moment in time, to have my name legally and correctly on the title of a Ferrari. I can think up many more impossible things that I can state with certainty, too.
So please, elaborate on your statement. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 19:28:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dude, you strike me as someone with a firm grip on the obvious. I agree with just about every argument you have presented that some things are impossible, but I think you may have misunderstood the point Ricky was making.
No, I'm disagreeing with the point Ricky is making.
The claim that "nothing is impossible" is a false premise. Clearly there are many many things that are impossible, and we know that they are impossible.
I know I sometimes have the tact of a blunt object... so I hope I'm not comming accross to harsh.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 19:40:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
When I say, "Nothing is impossible", what I mean is that we will never know what is impossible. We may know that something is impossible, but we will never be able to say for certain what that thing is.
We know lots of things which are impossible. It is impossible for me to not have been born via C-section. It is impossible for me, at this moment in time, to have my name legally and correctly on the title of a Ferrari. I can think up many more impossible things that I can state with certainty, too.
So please, elaborate on your statement.
I think the point Ricky is making is philosophical one based on the idea of certainty. We can't be 100% certain of anything since we do not possess absolute knowledge. For instance, you could wake up tomorrow a wealthy stockbroker with a ferrari in the garage and a strange recollection of having dreamt about being a certain "Dave" someone. You cannot state anything with 100% certainty, therefore nothing can be stated as 100% impossible (with certainty). All you can do is say you owning a ferrari is 100% impossible as far as you know.
Yes, it is all very solipsistic, but I think that's Ricky's point. Anyway, that's why I countered with Descarte's maxim as the one thing we can know with certainty. Don't know if that's what he was looking for or not.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/11/2005 19:47:59 |
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