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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 01:07:15
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This has probably been done before but a couple of these caught my eye and I felt like answering. I'm sure this is a meaningless effort, but it'll satisfy my momentary urge to respond.
quote:
What came first the chicken or the egg?
The egg.
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How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
Life evolved in the existing environment and as the byproducts of living organisms changed the environment, life adapted to the changes through evolution.
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There are no atheists in foxholes
No, I think there are foxes in foxholes, or maybe just dirt. On the other hand, if you are claiming people in potentially fatal situations all turn to God, someone might have said that but it was never based on evidence.
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I suppose bats evolved and then fossilized themselves!
I don't get this point at all. Are you wondering how some species survive for millions of years without changing much? Evolution is not linear. That is one of the common mistakes made by those who don't understand evolutionary science.
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For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
I'll have to look these up and edit in a response. The Bible quotes are meaningless here without their context. If you want to do battle with out of context Bible quotes I'll be happy to oblige.
quote:
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
See above answer.
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You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
And you can measure the wind and explain the wind. So what is your point?
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Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
The word mistake or mutation has been used to describe the genetic variation when cells divide and the daughter cells are not exact copies. There is no value judgment in the "mistake" by itself. In fact, variation is one of the best genetic survival techniques. If the environment changes, an organism that has little variation has less chance of having offspring that can survive the change. Organisms with lots of variation, are more likely to have at least one or more offspring that can tolerate the change. Humans and other sexually reproducing organisms not only have variation, they have redundancy. If you have a defective gene on one chromosome, there's still a chance the gene from the other parent will work OK.
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Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
If you keep reading 20 year old text books you'll never find those missing links. If you'd bother to read current science, in particular genetic science, you'd see the 'missing link' argument has been dispelled.
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We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
That would be coincides, as in coincidence. I can show you an incredible amount of moral darkness starting with accounts in the Bible and continuing throughout history. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, witch burning, to name a few historical events. Ever see the torture museum in London? That's an eye opener. We just had the Holocaust anniversary. The killing fields history in Cambodia wasn't very pleasant.
There is no moral darkness coinciding with anything currently taught in schools.
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
Go to Top of Page
See answer above under first Bible quote.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2005 : 01:17:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
Well, there's nothing here but a preacher preaching. I say a time will come when the absurdities of believing the Bible will be as obvious as the absurdities in believing something like Coyote stole fire from heaven.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/07/2005 01:41:14 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 01:24:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
:II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Well, it also says a few lines above:quote:
2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
And since that was a couple thousand years ago, I'd say that was definitely a strong delusion on the author's part. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 01:31:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
Well since this is nonsensical lets look at the other passages here.
quote:
EPH 6:9
And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Apparently God has respect for some people.
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Gen.4:4
"And the Lord had respect unto Abel."
Ex.2:25
"And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them."
Lev.26:9
"For I will have respect unto you, and make your fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you."
2 Kg.13:23
"And the Lord was gracious unto them ... and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob..."
Ps.138:6
"Though the Lord be high, yet hath he respect for the lowly."
And, God respects no one.
quote:
Dt.10:17
"For the Lord your God ... regardeth not persons."
2 Chr.19:7
"For there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons."
Acts 10:34
"God is no respecter of persons."
Rom.2:11
"For there is no respect of persons with God."
Gal.2:6
"God accepteth no man's person."
Eph.6:9
"Neither is there respect of persons with him."
Col.3:25
"There is no respect of persons."
1 Pet.1:17
"And if ye call upon the Father, who without respect of persons, jugeth according to every man's work."
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 01:38:55 [Permalink]
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And here's a list for you Verlch, right from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible website. The list is so long, let's see how you do with just the first book, Genesis. If you go to the page, the links are imbedded and you don't have to look up each verse by hand.
quote:
Science and History in the Bible
All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.--Lev.11:20
Genesis>
1. The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The true order of events was just the opposite. 1:1-2:3
2. God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5
3. God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8
4. Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11
5. God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11
6. In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14
7. God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16
8. "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16
9. "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17
10. In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24
11. God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26
12. God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28
13. All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30
14. "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31
15. In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31
16. Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7
17. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. But animals were not created instantaneously from the ground, but evolved over millions of years. And we still don't have names for all of them. Ten thousand new species of insects are discovered and named each year. 2:18-22
18. God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14
19. Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18
20. "There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants? 6:4
21. Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long. 6:14-15
22. Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8
23. God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11
24. All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14
25. The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20
26. "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2
27. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11
28. When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find there way back after the flood subsided? 8:19
29. Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. 8:20-21
30. "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1
31. According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2
32. "Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2
33. God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky to remind himself of his promise to the animals not to do it again. But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13
34. Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationi |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/07/2005 01:40:49 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 03:30:07 [Permalink]
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Lot's o' time on your hands, B'gal? 
I started to go through all that nonsense a while back, but then he kept adding to it. I check it out each time V posts to see if the list has grown. It hasn't in a while, although I rather doubt that he's run out of material.
As it is, it has become longer than many if not most posts. 
It's humorous, if you think about it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/07/2005 03:31:12 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:43:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
[From Verlch's sig:]
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
And you can measure the wind and explain the wind. So what is your point?
Verlch is comparing knowledge of the wind to knowledge of God (in that "you can't see God, but you can see His effects"). I pointed out to him that this is also the way much of science is done, and so his signature actually supports evolutionary biology, archeology, cosmology, etc., but he just shrugged it off. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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NGR
New Member
Australia
9 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 17:08:12 [Permalink]
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| Actually I always wondered why Velchs sig was considerably longer than his average post. I confess that the content of either has never really interested me much. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 18:21:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NGR
Actually I always wondered why Velchs sig was considerably longer than his average post. I confess that the content of either has never really interested me much.
Hi, NGR-- and welcome to SFN. It's true-- Verlch has perhaps the longest sig of any member here. What's interesting is that it's grown over time. The first few popped up during a long debate about evolution (the combined pages of the two threads numbered over 35!). The others appears as he delved into crazier topics-- the Masonic conspiracy, Illuminati, anti-women rants, and so on. Doubtless as time goes on and Velrch subscribes to more insane ideas, his sig will get even longer! |
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 16:43:29 [Permalink]
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You have to take into account that this is being written by a guy that lived a few thousand years ago, trying to explain what God is showing him.
From the stand point of the Earth looking outward and recording whatever God is showing him, it's all in order.
Genesis 1
v2-The Earth is without form. That's an easy one, but we can safely assume that the dust and gasses are present.
v3-That's the Sun. So now we have a suitable rotation in the solar system. Can't see the stars yet. It's too dusty.
v4-Our Earth cloud is beginning to become dense enough that there is a day and night rotation. (we're still in the cloud and can't see much. Maybe someone who knows more about orbital mechanics can estimate the speed of the rotation)
v5-God figures out what day and night are (joke)
v6-The gasses start to separate and the heavier gasses settle below the lighter. Moses calles them "waters". How is supposed to know what gasses are?
v7-The gasses condensate and we have earth and sky. But it's cover in liquid.
v8-God puts out a sign showing us which way is up ('nother joke) But the "heavens" are above in the sky. I don't know if Moses' use of the word "days" means literal days or it might mean "stages".
v9-Now the liquids are finishing and Pangea "rises" out of the ocean.
v10-God labels a couple more things. But by this stage, ground is ground and sea is sea.
v11+12-(everybody's favorite part)The evolution of life begins. Plants first.
v13/18-The Sun the Moon and the STARS!! Our atmosphere has finally begun to clear up. (would oxygen do this?)Who cares? We can see through our atmosphere.
v20-The fish and birds have arrived. Aquatic life first and then mammals. Of course, they start screwing like crazy and making babies. God is very pro-sex at this point.
v24-Mammals make their way to the land. Now all the animals are born.
v26-... and finally US!! (with orders to make more on our own)
That's fairly profound for a guy that lived 3000 years ago.
I haven't looked at a current timeline. Once they had creatures crawling out of the sea before the birds. According to Moses, that's not going to be right. It's much easier to see a fish sprouting wings ahead of the amphibians. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 18:04:18 [Permalink]
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I don't know how familiar you are with the Theory of Evolution but here's a site that will help even if you're well informed. It is the best on the'net.
Fish have indeed sprouted wings of sorts, but I will forgo elaborating on it and instead point you at a very interesting animal from the Devonian.
quote:
ICHTYOSTEGA AS A TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL
by Lenny Flank
(c) 1995
The creationists are fond of stating that there are "no transitionals in the fossil record". One of the best fossil transitionals, however, is that of Icthyostega, which combines the traits of both fishes and amphibians, and represents the transition between aquatic and terrestrial vertebrate life.
This guy and his relitives came on to the land long before flying fish began to glide.
You have not yet met our verlch. I hope he comes back soon -- I'm rather fond of him.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 20:28:38 [Permalink]
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David_Mc, let me first say Welcome to Skeptic Friends Network!
Then I'd like to ask how much you know about the scientific theory of how Earth was born?
I ask, because I can see a number of discrepancies in your interpretation of Genesis. This version/interpretation has been presented before in forums like Rapture Ready. If you don't know anything about RR, let me just say that the majority of the members there belive that Genesis is the litteral Truth. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 23:44:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
You have to take into account that this is being written by a guy that lived a few thousand years ago, trying to explain what God is showing him.
From the stand point of the Earth looking outward and recording whatever God is showing him, it's all in order.
.....
Hi DavidMc, pleased to meet you.
So you are saying all of the gross inaccuracies, (ie not consistent with the scientific evidence we have collected to date), in the Bible are the result of poor communication between God and Man? |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 23:53:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
[quote]Originally posted by David Mc
You have to take into account that this is being written by a guy that lived a few thousand years ago, trying to explain what God is showing him.
From the stand point of the Earth looking outward and recording whatever God is showing him, it's all in order.
.....
Hi DavidMc, pleased you decided to try the more challenging of the suggested forums. I didn't realize at first you were from the BABB.
So you are saying all of the gross inaccuracies, (ie not consistent with the scientific evidence we have collected to date), in the Bible are the result of poor communication between God and Man?
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/15/2005 13:04:42 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2005 : 03:24:30 [Permalink]
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Genesis is a remarkable book, arguably the most interesting in the whole Bible. Taken in a broad view though, it not so different from other faiths with a creation myth, including the so-called 'pagan' beliefs. It's stories were told well before the faith became any sort of organized and I would think that those stories told would vary a bit from tribe to tribe. And bits and peices were borrowed from other peoples, and blended into it.
What remarkable, magical events it describes! Creation, Garden of Eden, Flood, and so forth; all evolving from passed-on tales of elders to followers in an oral tradition. It is almost a pity that it was untimatly written down.
The God described in Genesis was a very ill-tempered beast. He demanded fear and adulation, and when these were insufficently demonstrated, he flushed the whole thing like a drowned rat found in the toilet. Except for a few, good people, of course, and variations on this can be found among various aborigional peoples including American Indians.
As tall tales go, it's a tough one to top if only due to it's staying power. I am forever amazed that YECs recoil in horror at the fact of the earth being 4.5 billion years old, yet are willing to accept a literal, six, twenty-four hour day creation of everything there is everywhere by magic. I am astounded that the flood myth is believed in the face of hard evidence produced by disciplines ranging from geology to math and physics which clearly demonstrate it's impossibility.
I am appalled that it is still believed that the origin of our species was from dust, a borrowed rib and a little more magic, rather than evolution from an earlier species, as all of the emperical evidence supports.
I think Genesis is such a great book largely because it showcases our unique ability to cling tightly and stubbornly to something that has no viable hand-hold.
"The Bible says it, I believe it, and that's all there is to it!" -- Unknown.
"If the data conflicts with my interpretation of Scripture, then those data are flawed." -- Henry Morris of ICR.
"You can't get a croc from a rock!" -- Kent "Dr? Dino" Hovind.
"But you can get a rock from a croc!" -- filthy
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2005 : 06:13:12 [Permalink]
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Chicken or egg? This is an incomplete question. Chicken Eggs are chicken, If refering to all eggs clearly eggs came first, however chicken eggs could be argued to be chickens. I suggest rewriting it.
What came first the chicken egg or the fully formed chicken? This would really claify the situation. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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