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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2005 : 19:40:52 [Permalink]
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Moses' timeline doesn't appear all that accurate, at least as far as life is concerned (all dates approximate):
Genesis 11 & 12 specify seed- and fruit-bearing plants on land. While the first plants colonized land some 480 million years ago (mya), seeds and fruit didn't come about until around 240 mya.
Genesis 20 - 22 specify every living thing in the water, along with birds. The first water-dwellers lived some four billion years ago. If we just stick with vertebrate fish, it's only 480 mya. Either way, water creatures came before seed-bearing plants. Oh, and birds didn't show up on the scene until 152 mya.
Genesis 24 and 25 discuss livestock and all other land animals. As Moses discusses no insects or other arthropods, which showed up some 425 mya (well before birds or seed-bearing plants), we'll ignore them and stick with land-dwelling vertrbrates, which came along 380 mya (still before birds or seed-bearing plants).
Genesis 26 is where man shows up. Moses nailed this as last, I'll grant that.
Now, even if Moses had gotten it all correct, how "against the odds" would it have been had he just guessed? Given these four simple categories - plants, fish and birds, land animals, man - there are only 24 different orders to put them in. So, on a wild guess, Moses would have had more than a 4% shot at getting it right. This isn't all that much of a long shot.
But, would he have been so stupid? Of course not. Simple observations would suggest that because birds and animals eat plants, God "should" have made plants first. And people can eat just about anything, so they come last. So, with plants first and man last, the only question is to put fish, birds, and land animals into some sort of chronology. If this is the way Moses went about it, he had a 50-50 shot at being "right," but for the wrong reasons.
And he was wrong, anyway.
Of course, the most-damning thing for the entire timeline (not just life, but the creation of the Earth and whatnot), at least for your "atmosphere clearing up" speculation, is that plants, without sunlight, die. But beyond that, you've broken down Genesis into 14 events, some of which must have come before others of them. Would God have made fish prior to there being water on Earth? Would God have made animals before there was an Earth at all? No on both points. So how many different "reasonable" timelines could there be, to a reasonably-intelligent person from Moses' time?
Not many. That he guessed the order in Genesis - given some simple observational and logical restrictions (so as to not call Moses a complete idiot) - cannot be dismissed because it's unlikely. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2005 : 21:34:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
My understaning of the theory is pretty much like my view on Evolution. Dust, gas, gravity, planet. It's straightforward. I don't have a problem with it.
I'm puzzled by the fact that you found discrepancies. Where?
I'm at work where I can only type sporadically, let's see if I can get together a coherent post...
Kil already mentioned some.
After re-reading you Genesis version, assuming liquid also applies to liquid stone, as in molten lava, and that the "gas cloud" outside Earth's atmosphere prevents other planets (and protoplanets) to be seen, this could work.
quote:
v9-Now the liquids are finishing and Pangea "rises" out of the ocean.
This would be the first solid island floating in a sea of molten lava.quote:
v10-God labels a couple more things. But by this stage, ground is ground and sea is sea.
In between this, God forgot to tell Moses that He let great rocks of ice rain down on the land, creating great destruction. Almost all carbon and water in the biosphere is considered coming from comets.
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v11+12-(everybody's favorite part)The evolution of life begins. Plants first.
Not bugs, then?
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v13/18-The Sun the Moon and the STARS!! Our atmosphere has finally begun to clear up. (would oxygen do this?)Who cares? We can see through our atmosphere.
And He forgot to mention that some of the twinkling lights in the sky were other lands than man may possibly walk on, contrary to most of them that were like the sun, only bigger and brighter (most of the visible ones anyway).
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 09:36:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
There were flying creatures at the time of Icthyostega, but they were all invertibrates. No birds. Micoraptor gui was a gliding theropod dino, one of the many dromaeosaurids, but it is not known if it's ancestors actually became birds. It was many millions of years younger than Icthyostega.
Icthyostega is thought to have spent much time in the water due to a rather weak pelvic setup, but it was incapable of living there as it had no gills. Just like most of today's salamanders.
As for Moses, it is first necessary to establish the existance of the gentleman as well as his verasity.
"Extrodinary claims demand extraordinary evidences." As I recall, it was Carl Sagan who said that.
If there were flying creatures about the time of Icthyostega then I can't really use Genesis 1 to put a timeline down. His statement is too general. If he was being shown a vision, a flying jelly fish would look like a bird to him. There too much overlap. Nevertheless he got fish, land creatures and people in the right order.
... and no. It would be nice to discount the existence of Moses, but the same could be done for Homer, Plato, Aristotle, et al., just about anyone in history. Still, the Jewish Torah is over 2000 years old.
The extrodinary claim is from Moses on the creation of the Earth in a particular order and in a particular way. Modern science has provided more than enough evidence that he was right (to suit me, at least) |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 10:11:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
There were flying creatures at the time of Icthyostega, but they were all invertibrates. No birds. Micoraptor gui was a gliding theropod dino, one of the many dromaeosaurids, but it is not known if it's ancestors actually became birds. It was many millions of years younger than Icthyostega.
Icthyostega is thought to have spent much time in the water due to a rather weak pelvic setup, but it was incapable of living there as it had no gills. Just like most of today's salamanders.
As for Moses, it is first necessary to establish the existance of the gentleman as well as his verasity.
"Extrodinary claims demand extraordinary evidences." As I recall, it was Carl Sagan who said that.
If there were flying creatures about the time of Icthyostega then I can't really use Genesis 1 to put a timeline down. His statement is too general. If he was being shown a vision, a flying jelly fish would look like a bird to him. There too much overlap. Nevertheless he got fish, land creatures and people in the right order.
... and no. It would be nice to discount the existence of Moses, but the same could be done for Homer, Plato, Aristotle, et al., just about anyone in history. Still, the Jewish Torah is over 2000 years old.
The extrodinary claim is from Moses on the creation of the Earth in a particular order and in a particular way. Modern science has provided more than enough evidence that he was right (to suit me, at least)
Hardly flying jellyfish. In the late Devonian, insects took to the air. quote:
By the start of the Devonian, however, early terrestrial vegetation had begun to spread. These plants did not have roots or leaves like the plants most common today, and many had no vascular tissue at all. They probably spread largely by vegetative growth, and did not grow much more than a few centimeters tall. These plants included the now extinct zosterophylls and trimerophytes. The early fauna living among these plants were primarily arthropods: mites, trigonotarbids, wingless insects, and myriapods, though these early faunas are not well known.
Insects appeared during the middle of the period and were common by the end of the period. Most were small, but a few grew to sizes larger than the largest insects known today. Fossil remains include cockroaches up to 10 centimeters (4 inches) long and dragonflies with wingspans about 74 centimeters (29 inches) wide. Scorpions, spiders, and centipedes also were among the more than 400 species found as fossil remains.
It was the time of the giant dragonflies, the like of which has never been seen since, and certainly not in Biblical times.
The thing is that Moses, or whoever, had no concept of the true age of the earth and no way of finding out. To him/them, an age of only a couple thousand or so years seemed perfectly reasonable for the earth. If we were alive at the time, it'd probably seem reasonable to us as well.
It would be very difficult to discount the works of Plato, stc. Their writings show up in too many places. For example, the Arab alchemists studied the Greeks as well as the Egyptians, and they are often referenced in some pretty good examples of their scientific literature.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 11:59:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
I believe I will 'appreciate' you and your discussion on any of these subjects. Any challenges on my part are strictly toward the facts and not toward you.
Just taking the Moses/God communication topic, I need more details on your position here. Are you saying Moses wrote Genesis, and the story of creation including all the other history was written, (or memorized if you think it was an oral history), during these communications?
And why would Moses only have clouds and not clear skies above and which verses do these descriptions come from?
Facts will only sharpen my own understanding. The only reason to express an opinion is to have it tested by more knowlegable people. With my pride safely tucked behing that... Have at me, ya heathens. 
Communication:
It's taken me an HOUR to fuss over that to try and answer your question. I'm still not absolutely sure what your asking about. Moses did right Genesis 1 after a vision. From Adam to Joseph the best answer is that Moses and his priests were capturing the known history of the Israelites in writing. I don't know.
Is there a particular instance or opinion you can point me to?
Cloud:
There's a nebulous cloud throughout the process. The last vaporous clouds that block the view of the stars are in vs 7 and 8. They disperse in v14 when the stars are first seen.
It helps if you can imagine a dream where you're standing still in black space until you're wrapped in a cloud of "stuff". Then the world is created around you. In the end you're standing in the same place, but that place is now a shoreline.
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 12:16:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Moses' timeline doesn't appear all that accurate, at least as far as life is concerned (all dates approximate):
Genesis 11 & 12 specify seed- and fruit-bearing plants on land. While the first plants colonized land some 480 million years ago (mya), seeds and fruit didn't come about until around 240 mya.
The entire process is described in about a page and a half of writing. Yeah, there's going to be some compression of the information.
Add in the "clouds" that formed the earth to his equation. Now what are the odds of his long shot? Nebulas probably weren't a hot topic around the camp fire.
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 12:23:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm at work where I can only type sporadically, let's see if I can get together a coherent post...
You can work and still do that? I want your autograph.
Nope not bugs first. A bug's gotta eat.
The comets are still theory in OUR current understanding. But I think I said earlier, Moses' version is so compressed that things are popping up all over the place.
While I'm thinking it. Where did the oxygen come from if not the plants? Maybe the reason we can't reproduce this life stuff is that we're using to much good air. I wonder if toxic environments are more conducive to the beginning of the process... hmmmmm. (ponder ponder ponder) |
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 12:31:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
t was the time of the giant dragonflies
FINALLY a chance to be incredibly stupid. THAT'S A MOSES BIRD AND YOU LOSE!!
You're gettting VERY close to dragging me away from this thread to go hunt some of these creatures and I won't forgive you.
Scary thought: What ate the dragonfly? |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 13:21:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
quote:
t was the time of the giant dragonflies
FINALLY a chance to be incredibly stupid. THAT'S A MOSES BIRD AND YOU LOSE!!
You're gettting VERY close to dragging me away from this thread to go hunt some of these creatures and I won't forgive you.
Scary thought: What ate the dragonfly?
If ol' Moe mistaked a humongous dragonfly for a bird, I'd like to have a taste of whatever he was smokin'!
Icthyostega, et al. probably ate the dragonfly when it could catch them. Acanthrostega doubtless snapped them up as they were laying eggs on the water, as well as feasting their larvae. It might have caught them on waterside plants much as juvenile crocodilians do today. Unfortunatly, while the fossil record is of the Devonian is large, it remains incomplete. Doubtless, their were many others.
Look 'em up and curse me as you will.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 14:47:15 [Permalink]
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DaveMc, I'll let the others discuss early Earth conditions for now but reserve the right to chime in later. You are not only compressing time lines, you haven't explained why God would be telling Moses all this a little less than 200,000 years after early humans left evidence they were here.
Where are there no accounts of the other humans in the Genesis story and why don't they matter? The logical explanation to me is the Bible is a human invention and it only covers what the originals composers knew at the time. There is nothing about Australians and South Americans because the Bible authors didn't know such places, let alone such people existed.
I'll comment on the God told Moses claim when I have more time to re-read the pertinent sections.
Edited to add source for age of first human remains:
Yahoo news assuming the original research is supportable. And if not there is other evidence. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/16/2005 15:11:24 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 14:59:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
Moses did right Genesis 1 after a vision.
Whoa! Where did you come up with that statement? Or is that just your own personal theory?
All the scholars I've heard suggest that god wrote the bible through Moses (and others). There isn't any need to "show" Moses anything, since he technically isn't the author. And certainly god would already know the order of creation, so he has no need to play it out again. So why would he chance a slide show presentation and risk the possibilty of Moses forgetting certain details? Or recalling things incorrectly? Or adding things that weren't there?
Also, where are you getting the idea that early earth was continuously shrouded in a dust cloud?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/16/2005 14:59:48 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 16:45:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
The entire process is described in about a page and a half of writing. Yeah, there's going to be some compression of the information.
You claim accuracy, and now agree that it's too short to be accurate?quote:
Add in the "clouds" that formed the earth to his equation. Now what are the odds of his long shot? Nebulas probably weren't a hot topic around the camp fire.
The word "cloud" doesn't appear in Genesis (either KJV or NIV) until 9:13. The clouds of gas and dust are described by you, and not by Genesis. I'm unwilling to credit Moses with an "accuracy" due to David Mc.
In other words, you're offering apology at its most extreme: finding some connection between what science tells us and the Bible which simply does not appear in that book at all, and you're abusing the science while you're at it (since under your scheme, plants would have flourished without sunlight).
Faith shouldn't rest upon such dubious "facts." It should rest upon nothing but your heart. Leave the science out of it, 'cause it doesn't fit, and you cannot force it to. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 20:04:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
quote:
I'm at work where I can only type sporadically, let's see if I can get together a coherent post...
You can work and still do that? I want your autograph.
I'm an electronics engineer troubleshooting GSM radio base stations. Some measurements (and firmware downloads) takes a minute or two to complete...quote:
Nope not bugs first. A bug's gotta eat.
I was thinking archaeobacteria and procaryotes. Cyanobacteria shouldn't really be considered plants...quote:
The comets are still theory in OUR current understanding.
It is a theory because it is currently the best explanation to known evidence.quote:
But I think I said earlier, Moses' version is so compressed that things are popping up all over the place.
Indeed, that's why I cringe at the thought of remotely using it as a quick-guide to scientific history.
quote:
While I'm thinking it. Where did the oxygen come from if not the plants?
Cyanobacteria was the first step. Some eucaryotes incorporated cyanobacteria into itself, using photosynthesis as an energy source, single celled organisms... But I hardly consider single-celled organisms "plants". By the time multi-cellular organisms developed, the atmosphere was already oxygenated.
quote:
Maybe the reason we can't reproduce this life stuff is that we're using to much good air. I wonder if toxic environments are more conducive to the beginning of the process... hmmmmm. (ponder ponder ponder)
That was part of the idea behind the MILLER-UREY EXPERIMENT.
The early Earth-atmosphere had all the juicy stuff needed to start life. Many creationists falsely believe that the Miller-Urey experiment was made to prove that life formed of it's own, and since life never formed in the experiment, the theory is proven wrong.
(read the link for more info) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2005 : 01:13:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabusequote:
Originally posted by David Mc
The comets are still theory in OUR current understanding.
It is a theory because it is currently the best explanation to known evidence.
One might add that I does not get better than a theory either.
Scientific theories (= explanations), might get expanded and become better theories with increased understanding, but they will never be turned into something "more" than theories. A theory is as good as it gets. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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