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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2005 : 07:29:38 [Permalink]
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| Ah, yes. Just like when Cain went off, got married and build a city, when there was about 3 people in the world. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 12:03:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
Where did these other humans come from? According to Genesis, there was Adam, then Eve, and that was it. They and their children would be the only ones on earth. Was god doing more creating elsewhere? Why didn't he tell Moses about it?
Not written for world history, except the part about the creation of the entire world?
I don't know where they came from. Were there any compatible species around?
How the Earth got here is certainly interesting to the world, but Moses was writing for the Israelites. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 12:29:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by R.Wreck
Where did these other humans come from? According to Genesis, there was Adam, then Eve, and that was it. They and their children would be the only ones on earth. Was god doing more creating elsewhere? Why didn't he tell Moses about it?
Not written for world history, except the part about the creation of the entire world?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know where they came from. Were there any compatible species around?
How the Earth got here is certainly interesting to the world, but Moses was writing for the Israelites.
David, if I understand you correctly in this thread, you claim that Moses got his creation account directly from the creator, and that it accurately reflects the actual order of things coming into being, and that that accuracy is due to its divine origin. So why then does Moses only tell of the creation of two humans, and ignore the creation of others? Is this an accurate account of the beginnings of the human race? Moses may have been writing for the Israelites, but wouldn't the Israelites have been interested in the origin of those other human beings they kept running into? If Moses truly did have a hotline to heaven, then he would have that information. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 14:24:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
quote:
Originally posted by George
[quote]There is one verse that you might find interesting. 1 Cor 15:52 - In the twinkling of an eye, people who are asleep and people at work will be taken. Astronaut Charles Duke pointed this out to mean the earth must be round.
Can you double check that reference. I don't see anything to indicate a round Earth.
[I'm having rookie reply problems. Hope this survives  ]
A person sleeping and a person working implies a night and a day. For both to be taken in the same instance, would require a round or cubical world to allow both at the same time. Since the Moon and Sun are round, a "round" (spherical) Earth might be a likely conclusion.
Since this knowledge was available to others in the first century, it is not a big thing. However, I thought it was an interesting ovservation on Duke's part.  |
| Edited by - George on 02/19/2005 14:58:08 |
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 14:25:08 [Permalink]
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There's no indication at all that Moses was concerned for any other people than the Israelites. If Moses had a "hotline" to God, he would have concerned himself exactly with what he wrote about. The Israelites.
Adam and Eve are the first in the lineage of Iraeilite line and are the people of importance. There is no motivation to consider anyone else.
So, no, he would not have that information. |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 15:18:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
Adam and Eve are the first in the lineage of Iraeilite line and are the people of importance. There is no motivation to consider anyone else.
Must Adam and Eve be considered the first of the Israelites? God didn't even put Adam in Israel since the Garden was further East? I suspect it was not His plan.
What I find interesting is the account in Genesis stating that God breathed into Adam making him a "living soul" (KJV). Adam was special. He may very well have been the first to initiate agriculture (about 11,000 year ago, I think).
The other man-like creatures (possibly H. sapiens, too) could easily have been around before Adam. They were created (via evolution possibly) male and female in chapter 1. Of course, this would explain a few things.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 01:28:57 [Permalink]
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Hi George, welcome and hopefully neither you nor DavidMc will get frustrated here. I forgot to tell David I go by beskeptigal here so that's the first thing. The members here typically have a strict science and logic attitude and are going to point out unsupported claims and contradictions without mercy. But everyone is really nice underneath and mean nothing personal. (Ignore Dave W when he's in a bad mood. Just kidding Dave.)
As to the BB code, it only differs a little. When you paste a smilie or try to add codes they sometimes end up at the end of the post. I just cut and paste them where I had intended. And when you use [url= you have to enclose the address in "". {url="address"}assigned link name{/url} only use [] not {}.
So I was waiting for you to show up here before answering your PM. Would you mind if I copied your post, my reply and your response to a new thread here? Then we could discuss your ideas and DavidMc's, which are similar, in a thread of their own. |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 12:40:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Hi George, welcome and hopefully neither you nor DavidMc will get frustrated here. I forgot to tell David I go by beskeptigal here so that's the first thing.
My vast powers of logic and experience suggested to me that you were one in the same.
Is David in BABB?
quote:
The members here typically have a strict science and logic attitude and are going to point out unsupported claims and contradictions without mercy. But everyone is really nice underneath and mean nothing personal. (Ignore Dave W when he's in a bad mood. Just kidding Dave.)
Seems pretty civil compared to the FWIW board. We all have biases and I am convinced we all really want to believe what we want to believe. However, seeking the truth, hopefully, will be paramount to these desires. One thing is sure, none of us made this grand universe so we best not get too stuck on any one concept without good reason.
quote:
So I was waiting for you to show up here before answering your PM. Would you mind if I copied your post, my reply and your response to a new thread here? Then we could discuss your ideas and DavidMc's, which are similar, in a thread of their own.
Feel free to post it. We knew it didn't belong on the BABB but it fits in fine here. (Let's see what stones get thrown at it.  )
Thanks for the invite here. I have already learned some things. The 200k yr. old h. sapien is quite interesting. I am wondering where that Israel h. sapien article is. It might have had an agricultural association to it, hopefully.
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| Edited by - George on 02/20/2005 12:42:45 |
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 13:13:21 [Permalink]
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George, same me I think.
quote:
Must Adam and Eve be considered the first of the Israelites? God didn't even put Adam in Israel since the Garden was further East? I suspect it was not His plan.
What I find interesting is the account in Genesis stating that God breathed into Adam making him a "living soul" (KJV). Adam was special. He may very well have been the first to initiate agriculture (about 11,000 year ago, I think).
The other man-like creatures (possibly H. sapiens, too) could easily have been around before Adam. They were created (via evolution possibly) male and female in chapter 1. Of course, this would explain a few things.
Nah, you can't consider Adam an Israelite. They aren't even a people until after Jacob father's them. But from the point of an ancient Israelite, he can trace his parentage in a single line back to creation. (the theory of "Begattin' ?)
The "living soul" reference is a possible point of the God/Evolution debate. That could be a moment of acquired intelligence. It's much closer to the timeline of Cro-Magna man. There is a religious phylosophy that accepts God as being "pure thought". The difference between "monkey" and man is our particular type of intelligence. I haven't come accross too many praying apes. Our ability to conceive of a god may be our spiritual value and individuality in the Creation.
If... I said IF!!!, Brethren... If God's definition of "Man" is that of a particular intelligence, then a whole bunch of things both spiritual and physical start to make sense. (not necessarily to a skeptic at first, but to a Christian they would.) |
| Edited by - David Mc on 02/20/2005 13:15:06 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 14:04:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by George
Is David in BABB?
Seems pretty civil compared to the FWIW board. ...
Feel free to post it. We knew it didn't belong on the BABB but it fits in fine here. (Let's see what stones get thrown at it. )...
Thanks for the invite here.
DavidMc posted on the BABB and asked for a forum he could discuss the Bible in terms of how scientific evidence might still agree given certain circumstances, mainly how the writers viewed and therefore described their interactions with God.
Do you mean FWIS? I found that BB allowed mean spirited posts depending on who they originated from. It has gotten worse. But I lurk on Mike's XOF news forum because it isn't affected by the flamers.
I have to go now but will start a new thread and answer your post hopefully by tomorrow. I need time to address so many points.
And, you're welcome. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 14:19:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc:
There's no indication at all that Moses was concerned for any other people than the Israelites. If Moses had a "hotline" to God, he would have concerned himself exactly with what he wrote about. The Israelites.
Adam and Eve are the first in the lineage of Iraeilite line and are the people of importance. There is no motivation to consider anyone else.
So, no, he would not have that information.
I'm having a little trouble following your logic here David. You are claiming that when it comes to people, Moses only had information on the Israelites. And you are claiming that god gave Moses a vision of the creation of the earth, including what order fish, birds, etc. were made, and that was important enough for Moses to record, yet god did not include the creation of other humans in the vision. Why is it important to know whether the fish or the bird was created first, but not that Adam and Eve weren't the only humans created? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 15:21:06 [Permalink]
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I think the skeptics are putting more "god" into Genesis 1 than I am. (oh, the irony of it all.)
The Old Testament was not written for all of mankind. It's not a message in a bottle. It's written by the Israelites, for the Israelites, by Israelites who are believed to have had personal interactions with God.
God was not trying to leave a message for the 21st Century American Gentile.
In Genesis 1, God is telling Moses where Moses came from because either God or Moses thinks it's important.
I don't personally think that the order of the creation was of logical significance to Moses (my opinion). But in the course of the writing, Moses sets an order that outlines our current understanding. |
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 15:32:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by George
...However, I thought it was an interesting ovservation on Duke's part.
Oh, okay. At the time of that writing (pre Galileo) the belief might have been held that the Universe turned on the Earth's axis. I'm sure they noticed the spherical shape of the moon. It's hard to miss sometimes.
Even if there was an address about the Earth being a globe, it could be accounted to human deduction and not a revelation from God. |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 16:10:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
quote:
Originally posted by George
...However, I thought it was an interesting ovservation on Duke's part.
Oh, okay. At the time of that writing (pre Galileo) the belief might have been held that the Universe turned on the Earth's axis. I'm sure they noticed the spherical shape of the moon. It's hard to miss sometimes.
Aristotle thought the Earth to be spherical. He reasoned that as earth material came together, it would most likely form a sphere. I believe many mariners in those days thought the Earth "round".
quote:
Even if there was an address about the Earth being a globe, it could be accounted to human deduction and not a revelation from God.
It wasn't a major finding even by his account. OTOH, it was one of "global proportions" Of course, had Jesus used a "4 Corners of the earth" approach, things would be a tad tougher.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 16:42:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think the skeptics are putting more "god" into Genesis 1 than I am. (oh, the irony of it all.)
Huh?
quote:
You have to take into account that this is being written by a guy that lived a few thousand years ago, trying to explain what God is showing him.
The Bible gives an account of man's interaction with God.
God probably told Moses because Moses asked Him.
My original argument is that the order in which the stars appear, relative to the presence of light on earth, is correct if Moses is relating what he has seen in a vision. Since visions are used as a form of God/man communication throughout the Bible, it's fair to consider that a vision was used here.
Why wouldn't God give a vision from that perspective? One reason could be to relay creation specific to the Earth and not the Universe.
In Genesis 1, God is telling Moses where Moses came from because either God or Moses thinks it's important.
You are the one claiming that Moses wrote Genesis based on a vision from god. I am merely asking why, if there was divine revelation, does Genesis go into details which are completely unimportant to your average goatherd of a few thousand years ago, but is obviously incorrect (or at least grossly incomplete) when it comes to the creation of man? After all, the Israelites wanted to know where they came from, not where ducks came from. The story as told (besides being, well, ludicrous), is inconsistent with the quality, accuracy, and completeness expected of a divine creator. This is the logical inconsistency I am asking you to address. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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