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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2005 : 11:25:13
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link
House approves universal ID cards with RFID, perhaps I shall have to move to Iraq for freedom.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 12:24:24 [Permalink]
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This sounds like a liberal idea more than a conservative one, I am utterly shocked. A TON of conservative organizations oppose this, it's almost as if they've been totally betrayed.
Whatever happened to freedom anyway?
tk |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 12:29:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
This sounds like a liberal idea more than a conservative one, I am utterly shocked. A TON of conservative organizations oppose this, it's almost as if they've been totally betrayed.
Whatever happened to freedom anyway?
tk
Funny, the ACLU and like "liberal" groups are shitting a brick over this.
It's more of a facist idea. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 14:09:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
If they worked and if they were only used for what they say they are going to be used for, I would agree. But unlike this jackass:
quote:
"When I get on an airplane and someone shows ID, I'd like to be sure they are who they say they are," said Rep. Tom Davis
There will always be fake id's. Sure, they will be harder to make and cost more money, but that only gives the people making them more profit. The entire idea that they would not be able to make fake ones is just bullshit.
And in the end, they will just cost the tax payer more money.
Talking about luring us into a false sense of security...
As written, someone, somewhere will be able to counterfit these cards; probably lots of someones. But, as they are so 'secure' they will be accepted at face value almost every time.
Ya gotta love the contradiction! The more stringent and foolproof it all becomes, the easier it all is to stymie.
We are governed by idiots and incompentents, thank you Republican voters....
Yeah, and the Democrats ain't much better! :disgusted:
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 16:35:39 [Permalink]
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Are there any other arguments against basic notion of a national ID card other than Federalism? What's the real problem? I notice that BigPapaSmurf has slid straight down the slippery slope already.
I like the sanity of the "there will be fake cards" in response to the idea that the cards will somehow promote security, but that doesn't address the fact that it'd be nice to have ID cards which meet a standard, just to avoid problems when in another state. I'm not talking protecting the nation from terrorists, here, just protecting the populace from other forms of government stupidity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 17:25:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Are there any other arguments against basic notion of a national ID card other than Federalism? What's the real problem? I notice that BigPapaSmurf has slid straight down the slippery slope already.
I like the sanity of the "there will be fake cards" in response to the idea that the cards will somehow promote security, but that doesn't address the fact that it'd be nice to have ID cards which meet a standard, just to avoid problems when in another state. I'm not talking protecting the nation from terrorists, here, just protecting the populace from other forms of government stupidity.
State driver's license seem to do the job pretty well, as is.
Of course, the question is begged: what about people who lack a drivers license?
I don't know about other states, but NC will issue you a state ID card that is as good an ID as the license. Would that not work in all states at the state level with reciprocal agreements as is the case with driver's license?
Of course, this too is open to fraud, but then, what isn't? In any event, keep the Feds the hell out of it.They are not necessary for this, and most likely would only screw it up and make it more expensive.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 18:55:23 [Permalink]
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| This is the wave of the future. You don't have to have the card but we'll entice or extort you into getting one. Want to fly? Get a card. Amy Goodman had a piece on this very thing yesterday on Democracy Now. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 19:10:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Are there any other arguments against basic notion of a national ID card other than Federalism? What's the real problem? I notice that BigPapaSmurf has slid straight down the slippery slope already.
I like the sanity of the "there will be fake cards" in response to the idea that the cards will somehow promote security, but that doesn't address the fact that it'd be nice to have ID cards which meet a standard, just to avoid problems when in another state. I'm not talking protecting the nation from terrorists, here, just protecting the populace from other forms of government stupidity.
First of all, they are doing it to promote security. So even if they are right for the wrong reason, it is still bad.
Now the real question, is it worth it? Like filthy said, driver's licenses seem to be able to do the job well. And I'm almost certain in every state, you can get an id instead of a license (this is at least true for New Jersey, Virginia, and Pennsylvania). So is it worth it to have a whole new system at the tax payer's expense, just for a small increase in standard?
I personally don't think so. But then again, I haven't heard of any cases where other forms of id were really a major problem. Are there any? If so, is it rare or common, and can it be overcome by using a cheaper alternative? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 21:46:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
So is it worth it to have a whole new system at the tax payer's expense, just for a small increase in standard?
Well, then let's not talk "whole new system." Let's - as written in the article - talk Federal guidelines about the minimum information contained on an ID. Taxpayer expense only for those states which don't already meet the standard.quote:
I personally don't think so. But then again, I haven't heard of any cases where other forms of id were really a major problem. Are there any?
Some states don't have photos on driver licenses. Guy in front of me in line at the checkout a few months back, buying beer, had the clerk all sorts of confused because he showed her his Connecticut license which is a different color, and has the info in different places, from VA licenses. He actually had to point to his DOB before she could find it.
What worries me most is the hypothetical undertrained cop who thinks an out-of-state license is fake.quote:
If so, is it rare or common, and can it be overcome by using a cheaper alternative?
Well, I dunno, but this isn't what I really wanted to talk about, anyway. I mean, I understand the Federalism argument just fine, which is why I was asking about other arguments against national IDs.
What puzzles me are the "there goes my privacy" reactions. Just how does a national ID do that (even without an RFID)? I've heard similar reactions to red-light cameras, yet the same people complaining that their privacy is being violated by the cameras don't also lobby for outlawing public use of all cameras. They're probably more likely to get video taped by a neighbor than they are to be IDed by a red-light camera, so it seems their priorities are completely screwed up. Do these people carry multiple fake state IDs on them, just to avoid being tracked? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 21:57:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Some states don't have photos on driver licenses. Guy in front of me in line at the checkout a few months back, buying beer, had the clerk all sorts of confused because he showed her his Connecticut license which is a different color, and has the info in different places, from VA licenses. He actually had to point to his DOB before she could find it.
That reminds me of a time a friend from out of state went to buy some beer. Being all too familiar with the hassle of trying to use an out of state license, he offered his U.S. passport, probably the single most authoritative piece of personal documentation one can provide. So what happened? You guessed it. The clerk says they didn't accept passports, only drivers licenses.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 22:10:54 [Permalink]
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I didn't take behind-the-wheel driver's ed in high school (wrong birth month). And I was too lazy/poor to take lessons on my own to learn when I had no acces to a car, anyway. So when I turned 19 (the grandfathered drinking age in VA way back then), I took my DMV-issued "walker's license" (photo ID) to my local convenience store to buy my first legal six-pack. And it turns out that because the convenience store was privately owned, they could ask you to do handstands to buy beer, if they so chose.
They chose simply to say "no" to my ID, because it wasn't a driver's license. So I got a buddy to drive me to 7-11.
I never had any other problems with my walker's license, even though I held it for another two years before I got a driver's license and a $300 car on the same day. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 22:11:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Some states don't have photos on driver licenses. Guy in front of me in line at the checkout a few months back, buying beer, had the clerk all sorts of confused because he showed her his Connecticut license which is a different color, and has the info in different places, from VA licenses. He actually had to point to his DOB before she could find it.
True, Dave. Though I don't know abot picture-less IDs, different states often have two or three very distinct versions of their IDs floating around. At the liquor store where I work, we're issued a book with all the variations. And yes, just trying to find a DOB on a license with which you aren't familiar can be frustrating...
quote:
I mean, I understand the Federalism argument just fine, which is why I was asking about other arguments against national IDs.
Or, perhaps, why have them? If the answer is "homeland security" I call bull shit, since there's no logic behind the notion that a government knowing your actual name will prevent you from engaging in some terrorist activity; it's been well documented that at least some of the 9/11 terrorists went by their own identity. Indeed, were a random person to start hating America tomorrow, she or he could easily do some pretty nasty things all with a perfectly legal license.
quote:
What puzzles me are the "there goes my privacy" reactions. Just how does a national ID do that (even without an RFID)? I've heard similar reactions to red-light cameras, yet the same people complaining that their privacy is being violated by the cameras don't also lobby for outlawing public use of all cameras. They're probably more likely to get video taped by a neighbor than they are to be IDed by a red-light camera, so it seems their priorities are completely screwed up. Do these people carry multiple fake state IDs on them, just to avoid being tracked?
There's something to this, though I still worry about consolidating individual knowledge so easily for the Feds. For some strange reason, I've grown to trust our government less than ever before. In fact, I now worry that a less-than-favorable email I sent to the President a few days ago is somehow going to result in wiretaps on my phone lines, or middle-of-the-night visits from the Secret Service. Or, I'm just paranoid. Perhaps if the Bush administration weren't so fucking Gestapo, I'd feel better about everything. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2005 : 17:59:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
True, Dave. Though I don't know abot picture-less IDs...
Googling for "drivers license" "without photo" turns up - on just the first page - sites describing "valid without photo" licenses (for state citizens who're out of state) for New York, Alabama, Louisiana, Oklahoma, California, Arkansas, and Maryland. It also turns up this year-old Vermont story:When someone qualifies for a Vermont driver's license they have a choice to make; with or without photo? 80% choose to be photographed. 20% do not. Some of those with plain paper licenses turn out to be imposters, looking to create a false identity for illegal activity. quote:
...different states often have two or three very distinct versions of their IDs floating around.
Just last week in the store, I saw a VA ID (or license) which was rotated 90° from the way mine is. You read it holding it so the long direction is vertical, instead of horizontal.quote:
At the liquor store where I work, we're issued a book with all the variations.
I wonder what the wrong-way VA ID is all about.quote:
Or, perhaps, why have them?
Well, here's the real question: it doesn't seem like many people are up-in-arms about having state-issued IDs, so why does a national standard for them get people so torqued off? Similarly, why is a state ID not an "invasion of privacy" but a Federal ID is?quote:
If the answer is "homeland security" I call bull shit, since there's no logic behind the notion that a government knowing your actual name will prevent you from engaging in some terrorist activity; it's been well documented that at least some of the 9/11 terrorists went by their own identity. Indeed, were a random person to start hating America tomorrow, she or he could easily do some pretty nasty things all with a perfectly legal license.
I agree completely, which is why I'm trying to figure out the other issues. National ID cards have been anathema to many people since long before Sept. 11th, 2001. I've heard people argue against them for as long as I can remember, I just never thought to ask "what's the problem?"quote:
There's something to this, though I still worry about consolidating individual knowledge so easily for the Feds. For some strange reason, I've grown to trust our government less than ever before.
So have I. Perhaps I've just not had the right experiences. The only times anyone has recorded information off my driver's license - aside from the DMV - was when I took a car for a test drive, and when I rented a car (is there an expectation of privacy for either act?). While the government could get all sorts of information about me from credit card purchases, they aren't tracking my beer consumption. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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