|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2005 : 14:06:05 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
Wendy, thanks for the points, they are very helpful. I figured that a video, while not a living will, might do more than help my husband [or guardian] notfeel guilty, it might be treated as supporting evidence.
Is there any way for an adult to divorce their parents? Or, is it a piecemeal thing, power of attorney, living will and such? It seems to me that if an adult had criminal parents who had, say committed crimes against the person [not that this posting is an accusation of particular behavior by my parents, this is a hypothetical] it would be cruel to allow the parents to make medical decisions.
Yes, there is. It's empowering a limited power of attourney as it relates to healthcare. Basically, you are designating a specific person or significant other as director of your medical care. Your folks may, if they so choose, challenge it in court. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
 |
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 14:08:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
More on Dr Hammeresfahr: He runs the Bammesfahr Neurological Institute in Clearwater, FL. He says he would use a hyperbaric chamber and administer drugs to dialate her blood vessels and increase bloodflow to the brain. He says her chances of getting better are "excellent."
I would have to as if Dr. Hammeresfahr has evaluated Terri Shiavo personally. There are some medically relavant questions that he'd have to answer. He appears to assume from his "prognosis" that there is no real brain damage and the whole problem is a lack of blood flow. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 14:29:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
Wendy, thanks for the points, they are very helpful.
You're welcome, trishran.
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
Is there any way for an adult to divorce their parents?
The only cases I am familiar with where an adult has terminated parental rights is when an adult is adopted as an adult. That is not to say it hasn't been done, only that I am not aware of it having been done.
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
Or, is it a piecemeal thing, power of attorney, living will and such?
Probably the most important thing (just my opinion, I am not an attorney) anyone can do to protect themselves from being in Terri Schiavo's horrible situation is not only to make a valid Living Will, but to discuss it with your doctor to make certain he or she will respect it. If not, get another doctor who will, and make certain that doctor has a copy of your Living Will on file. Your husband (or next of kin) should have access to the original document. Sadly, there are no guarantees that if this tragedy occurs there will be no argument among family, but if you take steps to make your wishes known you go a long way toward protecting your rights and your loved ones, too. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
|
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 14:53:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Terri doesn't eat or drink
She doesn't eat or drink because Michael Schiavo will not allow her to. He will not even allow a test to verify that she can. There is a nurse who has given a recent affidavit claiming that Terri had been fed by her by mouth previously. Michael has consistently decided against any rehabilitative attempts. Bottom line is that Michael does not want her to and will not allow her to.
Her family has always wanted to try to help her and has always wanted to try to offer her rehabilitative care. Over the years Michael has successfully prevented it. Her family is willing to care for her. He is not. He could divorce his wife and allow her family, who still cherishes her light and life, to care for her offer her a chance at rehabilitation. Yet he still refuses.
Miracles can and do happen. Google coma and persistent vegetative state recoverers and you'll find that it happens. A woman in a two decade long coma recently awoke, asked questions, and requested food and drink. The physicians were astounded. The brain is a marvelous organ. Experts are still astounded even in this day and age. No one claims to have all the answers. No one claims to know all there is to know about neurological functioning. How about erring on the side of a chance? How about allowing the chance for rehabiliation? Let's see what gains could be made. Experts could again be astounded.
And astounded or not, miracles or not...Terri has a family that is committed to loving her, caring for her and feeding her as she is. It is amazingly unselfish and beautiful, and in my opinion that is a miracle in and of itself.
"my power is made perfect in weakness"
Yeah, I forgot. If you do therapy your dissolved, reabsorbed cerebral cortex will grow back.
This issue has been explained over and over but for some reason those who have no clue about neurology seem to think they have some expertise to contribute. I would continue but it seems if you haven't figured it out yet you are not likely to figure it out with the facts. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/22/2005 15:17:17 |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 15:03:09 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
Kate Adamson, Airlie Kirkham, Patricia White Bull, Jacqueline Cole, and Carrie Coons...etc. All were diagnosed with Persistent or Permanent Vegetative State. All astounded their doctors and caregivers. All have regained consciousness and the ability to communicate to various but significant degrees.
Sarah Scantlin, though not specifically diagnosed with PVS was in a coma for 20 years. She was not expected to recover. Completely unresponsive for many years, Sarah did at one point (years later) begin making strange sounds that they were not sure were purposeful or meaningful. Then blinking. Then, February of this year, the woman sits up in bed and asks questions. She then calls her mother. Amazing.
And check out Kate Adamson's own personal account of having her feeding tube pulled. She was not even responsive as Terri is. Kate could not communicate at all except through blinking, and even then it was questioned. Google it and read for yourselves. http://www.rense.com/general44/vege.htm She and her doctor gave an interview with Bill O'Reilly.
And the Florida statute I found states thus: "In the state of Florida, the only ground which needs to be proven is that the marriage is irretrievably broken or the mental incapacity of one of the parties. However, if a party is mentally incapacitated, a dissolution shall not be allowed unless the party alleged to be incapacitated has been adjudged incapacitated according to the provisions of Florida Statute §744.331 for a proceeding period of at least three (3) years."
So, yes, according to this Michael could divorce her.
Look up for yourselves how Michael and an Attorney Jay Wolfson have worked against allowing testing to see if Terri can now swallow and take nourishment by mouth. There is a Wolfson report that can be read.
It appears that Michael early on did allow/provide for testing and rehab. It's understandable that one would lose hope over the years. At some point he did decide it was enough and has since refused rehab, testing, and feedings by mouth. You can read for yourselves claims by nurses regarding feedings by mouth and Michael's decisions. What if any of those other people listed above had had their decisions makers give up completely on them too? Their doctors hadn't given any of them hope for recovery either. They lingered for weeks, months, years, decades in vegetative states. They could all have been starved to death too. Yet they were given time and life.
Again, doctors have been astounded by the gains made by patients with the same or similar diagnosis. There's still much that remains a mystery. They're all still learning, as are we all. Instead of sentencing her to die, how about giving her a chance at rehabilitation.
Again, you just don't get it. None of the cases of 'miracle recoveries' involved persons with cardiac arrest as the cause of the initial brain injury. None of the cases involved persons whose cerebral cortex had degenerated to the point there is now only spinal fluid where the whole thinking portion of the brain was. It isn't damaged it is GONE.
This case has been in the courts for 7 years. All of the decisions supported the husband because they found he did have Terri's best interest in mind, the evidence of no cerebral cortex function was unquestionable, recovery was impossible, and the husband was the person designated to speak for the wife. You know, that sanctity of marriage thing. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/22/2005 15:18:20 |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 15:12:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
Michael Schiavo could file for divorce and let her willing family care for her instead of deciding to let her starve to death.
It was very interesting to hear an interview with Dr. Jay Wolfson tonight on All Things Considered in which he states that his impression is that Mr. Schiavo feels that to divorce his wife would be condemning her to a fate she expressly did not want.
Could you do such a thing to someone you love?
While it's pretty obvious what Terry's parents' motivations are in this case, what do you, thetrue, think is motivating Terry's husband?
By the way, Dr. Wolfson also stated that the "swallow test" he suggested would have been a legally binding decision as to Terry's fate. I can see good reasons for both parties to disagree to that. But especially so for Mr. Schiavo, as it would, like divorce, entail giving up his quest to do right by his wife's wishes.
I have seen a bit more of Mr Schiavo in the last few days. I can't tell you how much he sounds like my brother in the words he has spoken about loving his wife. There are no words low enough to describe the scum out there making public statements about Mr Schiavo's character and motives. He's been compared to Scott Peterson. He's been accused of being in it for money, of being unworthy of being a husband and on and on. He's accused of being awful for having a new love. After 15 YEARS of his wife being in a coma, what is wrong with having a new love? Yet these people have no concern about the things they are saying publicly about this man. It really makes me sad. |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 15:34:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Many states have laws to prevent what is loosely referred to as "the hand beyond the grave" that would probably make that an invalid request. Of course, your local probate attorney will be able to tell you what you can and cannot do and still have a valid Will.
Well, as you'd not YET be dead when they interfere with your wishes/living will, I don't think the "hand beyond the grave" would really apply here.
You instruct your lawyer to remove them from your will, empower him to do so under certain specific circumstances, and have it done before you actually die.
RE Mr Schaivo:
Yes, the religious people of this country who are involved in the slandering of this man should be ashamed of themselves. They are pathetic.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 15:53:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
More on Dr Hammeresfahr: He runs the Bammesfahr Neurological Institute in Clearwater, FL. He says he would use a hyperbaric chamber and administer drugs to dialate her blood vessels and increase bloodflow to the brain. He says her chances of getting better are "excellent."...
It shows how the parents were completely unable to find any respectable neurologist to support their claims. A Google search doesn't turn up much on this guy except his name being tossed around on forums like this one so he clearly isn't a respected neurologist.
The Institute doesn't have a respectable web page.
This site about the guy is full of lies despite only being 1/2 page.quote:
The results of this therapy have been so remarkable that Dr. Hammesfahr has written and lectured extensively about it and he has invited physicians, primarily based in universities
Then why no citations?
All his supposed peer reviewed publications are on Medforum.quote:
MedForum® presents an opportunity to publish work in a interactive peer reviewed journal designed from the ground up to foster more immediate medical communications and collaboration.
That is not peer reviewed publication. That is a forum. quote:
garnered him the 1999 nomination for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology
Then why isn't he in the Nobel Prize nominee data base?
Hammesfahr
Hammersfahr
Care to check another spelling? Here's the search page. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 15:57:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
...Does anybody know of a fool-proof, legal way to prevent one's medical care from being hijacked by one's parents? I am surprised that the Schiavo case has gone as far as it has in courts, since Michael is obviously next of kin, which would seem to make it impossible for her parents to have standing. I would totally prefer to have my husband make any medical decisions i could not make myself. This case makes me concerned that my marriage is not sufficient to prevent interference by my parents.
Some of us in the medical field joke about tatooing DNR on the chest. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/22/2005 16:00:39 |
|
|
|
Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 17:07:03 [Permalink]
|
Reguarding Terry:
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terry Shiavo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida. I hear the media calling her brain dead. Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree. Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped. Her father and mother say she is responsive. A former nurse that once treated her attests under sworn affidavit that she is responsive. So, who is right? Do not intelligent people know to error on the side of causion? Why do we purchase car insurance? I knew a man years ago who's wife had a similar stroke years before we met. She had just got to where she could roll her eyes and force a smile from one side of her mouth while tied in her chair. But smile she did when her husband would pet her head and read to her. She was starting to recover. Years earlier she was just like Terry. Be logical, be smart and be humane. |
Tim Gray |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 17:10:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
He's accused of being awful for having a new love. After 15 YEARS of his wife being in a coma, what is wrong with having a new love?
The really horrible part about the above is that according to Wolfson's report, Mr. Schiavo was encouraged to see other women, by Terry's parents. Of course, it was well over 10 years ago that this encouragement occured, but still...
But you're right in your disappointment. The religious people making statements about the man and his intentions can only call themselves "Christian" in name only. creation88, for example (who started this thread) insists that God's job is his own on at least two counts: 1) he judges Mr. Schiavo to be an "evil man," and 2) he somehow knows that it's not Terry's time to die. Hubris, damnable hubris!
You also wrote:quote:
Some of us in the medical field joke about tatooing DNR on the chest.
So I'm thinking about donating my body to a medical school, hoping it gets into one of the first gross anatomy classes. I've heard they start the students looking at the spine, so can you tell me: between which vertebrae should I have "WELCOME TO DAVE W." tattooed, with maybe a dashed line for that first incision? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 17:16:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Today at 5pm in Florida, Terry Shibo will be murdered. She is a woman who is severly brain damaged because of a car accident many years ago. She can breath on her own. She is responsive to her parents. At 5 o'clock her feeding tube will be removed and she will starve to death. She will die maybe the the slowest most painful death possible.
Who is making the decision to do this? Her husband. He left Terry many years ago. Helives with another woman, and has two children with this other woman. He never officially divorced her, so he is given the decision of whether to keep Terry alive, or to kill her. Terry's parents want to keep her alive, but this evil man is killing her anyway. Do you know why? Because he will recieve all of her assets. Her house, her car, her money. This man is disgusting.
What is this world coming to? The first people that the Nazi's killed were the mentally handicapped. Is that the direction we're going?
We already kill un-born babies on a regular basis. Now this. What next? When does this end?
Where the fuck hell do you get your information?
Sounds like you were plugged directly into some whacko-fundie news feed, maybe FOX?
For one, the woman had a heart attact many years ago, not a car accident. Her brain was without oxygen for an extended time.
Her husband? Well, guess what. In the good old USA, if you are unable to make medical decisions for yourself, your husband or wife takes that responsibility. Who better to know what your wishes are? Who better to know what you would want done? I think the person you live with day in and day out is the right person to make those decisions, and so do the vast majority of people.
How would YOU feel if you knew that your wife would not want to be kept alive by artificial means (and this is what we are talking about here, ARTIFICIAL LIFE SUPPORT), suffered some tragedy like this, and her parents came in with lawyers and fought you off and had a judge FORCE you to witness your wife being put through an endless torture that you know for a fact she doesn't want?
As somebody who lives in proximity to this situation I have to tell you that you need to step back. This woman died many years ago. Her body continues to function, as young bodies will tend to do, despite having no brain function.
Having witnessed a speech/news conference first hand by this woman's parents several years ago, and overheard the prep by their lawyers(on the front steps of one of the hospitals I work for), I can tell you that they are so far into denial (atleast they were then) that they should have been seeking professional help.
quote:
This story has literally made me feel sick.
I can agree with you on one thing then. This story makes me feel physically ill as well. I get a queasy feeling and a chill (like you just got punched in the gut) at the thought of my body being kept functioning beyond my own ability to care for myself. If I can't care for myself, and do the things I want to do in life, then the time is up. I have special arrangements made to remove the limbs, with a dull and rusty saw, of anyone who violates my living will, regardless of their relationship to me.
Hopefully they will let her body expire. It is far to late to accord her any dignity, as she's been a veg for over a decade. That means that she's been fed through a tube that is surgically placed into her stomach. She shits and pisses on herself every couple of hours. She has to have 24/7 medical care to turn her every hour or so to avoid pressure wounds. 24/7 medical care to clean her excretions off of her. Has to be bathed by other people. Imagine yourself caring for a newborn. Now, magnify that newborn to 140lb with constant liquid stool. It's atleast a 2 person job to clean up the mess.(because this is the result of being fed through a tube, goes in liquid, comes out liquid)
So, call it murder if you want.
The rest of us will call it what it really is. Mercy.
(edit to tone down the tone of the tone that may have been to toned up for general consumption)
Reguarding Terry:
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terry Shiavo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida. I hear the media calling her brain dead. Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree. Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped. Her father and mother say she is responsive. A former nurse that once treated her attests under sworn affidavit that she is responsive. So, who is right? Do not intelligent people know to error on the side of causion? Why do we purchase car insurance? I knew a man years ago who's wife had a similar stroke years before we met. She had just got to where she could roll her eyes and force a smile from one side of her mouth while tied in her chair. But smile she did when her husband would pet her head and read to her. She was starting to recover. Years earlier she was just like Terry. Be logical, be smart and be humane. |
Tim Gray |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 17:41:11 [Permalink]
|
| This is a great thread on christianforums on the Terri Schavo case, which seems to really stick to the facts. I don't want to make a habit out of posting their threads here, but I think this one is exceptional. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 17:41:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terry Shiavo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida.
Welcome to the SFN. I'd first like to say that you insult everyone here who's thoughtfully posted to this thread by your false and idiotic assertion that "the people of this forum" are only paying attention to a single opinion. And to top things off, you insist that the judge is only working with a single opinion, yet it is obvious that he heard from two competing lawyers yesterday.quote:
I hear the media calling her brain dead.
They are wrong. She is in a persistent vegetative state.quote:
Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree.
Only two doctors during the court cases about Terry have offered disagreement, and they did so on the basis of anecdotes and wishes, not upon science and medicine. They were, not surprisingly, doctors picked by Terry's parents, and one of them was not a neurologist.quote:
Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped.
Which one?quote:
Do not intelligent people know to error on the side of causion? Why do we purchase car insurance?
Mr. Schiavo insisted for many years that Terry would get better, just like her parents and that anonymous doctor you mentioned. He finally agreed with the competent medical staff around him that she would not. Erring on the side of caution has gotten Terry precisely nowhere.quote:
I knew a man years ago who's wife had a similar stroke years before we met... Be logical, be smart and be humane.
It's easy to be logical and smart and then make huge mistakes when you don't have a grasp of the facts. Terry did not have a stroke.
As for humane, if she didn't want to "live" like that, as she apparently told her husband, then to go against her wishes is - as far as I'm concerned - a form of torture. In that light, your comparison of keeping Terry alive with the purchase of automobile insurance is horrific, rude and belittles this highly complex situation.
I believe you have accomplished the polar opposite of what you set out to do with your first post here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
