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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2005 : 18:57:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terry Shiavo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida. I hear the media calling her brain dead. Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree. Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped. Her father and mother say she is responsive. A former nurse that once treated her attests under sworn affidavit that she is responsive
A single opinion? Wow. You boil down the opinion of atleast 20 physicians and several court appointed physicians into a "single opinion"? That's some interesting math.
The overwhelming medical opinion is that the woman is permanently in a PVS. Overwhelmingly the physicians on the case, court appointed or not, agree that she will never recover.
The ONLY people who disagree are her parents and the doctors that they have hired (payed lots of money to) to disagree with the large majority.
The woman suffered a severe hypoxic brain injury 15 years ago. As I have said before, people just do not "wake up" from this. It is monstrously inhumane to keep maintain the biological function of this woman's body under these circumstances. Her husband has repeatedly stated that she did not want to be kept in a state like this.
Who are you people to think you know this woman's wishes better than her husband?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26025 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 20:14:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Who are you people to think you know this woman's wishes better than her husband?
The more I hear about this case, the more I think they don't give a damn about Terry's wishes, they're just scared to death that they might wind up in the position they imagine Terry to be. They think she's thinking and feeling on the inside, and only lacking the ability to communicate to the outside. They cannot cope with medical knowledge which says that people in a PVS sleep and wake, move, and more-importantly seem to laugh and cry, while not having the parts of the brain which make up our personalities.
But nobody has ever been in Theresa Marie Schiavo's state before. Nobody knows anyone even remotely like her, since nobody has been in a PVS due to anoxia, with uncounted billions of neurons dying and the space being taken up by unthinking CSF, for 15 years before. Not one person.
And so, "common sense" does not apply. Comparing Terry with someone who had a stroke or was in a coma is apples-and-oranges. Terry was in a coma, for less than two-and-a-half months after her arrest. She did come out of her coma. And people who recover from strokes don't have their entire cerebral cortex destroyed. Terry did.
Nobody wants to be like Terry, so these terrified people proclaim that even Terry is not like Terry. If it were true, then there would be zero people like Terry in the world. But there is (Terry herself), and they cannot face the horrifying reality of her very existence.
I understand these ideas, but as should be obvious, I don't agree that they are good ideas to have. Terrible things happen in this world every day. To deny this reality is to... well... deny reality. I understand the need people have to deny such terrors, and I'm sure I've denied reality myself, so I do empathize with them, as well as with Terry's parents and her husband.
But when these folks show up here, to call everyone idiots, and smear those who (they say) are blind to their dysfunctional "reality," I get angry. Not so much because of the simple insults, but more because they claim, implicitly, to know that each and every person who disagrees with them does so because they haven't thought about this subject, long and hard. After the more than 166 posts in this thread, dozens of news reports from various outlets, and even a few court documents, I find that attitude to be extraordinarily infuriating. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 20:58:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Some of us in the medical field joke about tatooing DNR on the chest.
We were just joking about this in class on Saturday. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2005 : 21:56:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
This is a great thread on christianforums on the Terri Schavo case, which seems to really stick to the facts. I don't want to make a habit out of posting their threads here, but I think this one is exceptional.
I agree. Very impressive. Deffinitly worth a read. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 03:45:11 [Permalink]
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Atlanta courts refuse to hear appeal.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7254897/
My favorite line from todays blathering article:
quote:
This is a clear cut case of judicial tyranny. All the judges who have ruled against Terri are tyrants, and we fully expected this decision,” said Tammy Melton, 37, a high school teacher from Monterey, Tenn.
The rhetoric is stepping up. Moving from "activist judges" to "judicial tyranny" now, apparently.
Got to looking around for actual CT scans on the net, found a couple of interesting things.
A normal brain CT:
http://www.umassmed.edu/strokestop/module_one/interactive-images/Mod1-42-braintest.htm
Mrs Schaivo's brain CT:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/CT%20scan.png
To give a small ammount of reference for looking at these images, the top of the images is the frontal lobes.
You will notice the massively enlarged central area if Mrs Schaivo's CT scan, that is just a blank, dark area. Compare this to the small cistern in the normal CT scan. Both of those areas are filled with CSF (cerebro-spinal fluid). Clearly a large percentage (easily 40% on the image shown) of Mrs Schaivo's brain is simply gone. Replaced with CSF.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 07:51:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
Reguarding Terry:
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terry Shiavo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida. I hear the media calling her brain dead. Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree. Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped. Her father and mother say she is responsive. A former nurse that once treated her attests under sworn affidavit that she is responsive. So, who is right? Do not intelligent people know to error on the side of causion? Why do we purchase car insurance? I knew a man years ago who's wife had a similar stroke years before we met. She had just got to where she could roll her eyes and force a smile from one side of her mouth while tied in her chair. But smile she did when her husband would pet her head and read to her. She was starting to recover. Years earlier she was just like Terry. Be logical, be smart and be humane.
Timgraysr, welcome to the board.
As I and others here have posted before, we did not rely on just one opinion. We have researched this subject on both sides and noted the majority medical opinion. That "idiot" judge issued a ruling which was congruent with the law. I've read the full text of his ruling. He is an exellent jurist. When you read his decision, you cannot tell if he is Democratic or Republican. You just recognise proper citation of case law and application of the law. The Schindlers only challenge was on 14th amendment grounds.
The affidavits usually come after Terri Shiavo's feeding tubes are unplugged. I remember this happening in 2000 as well.
You have a freind whose wife had an eating disorder leading to a chemical imbalance and flatlined for 5 minutes resulting in hypoxic brain injury? I find that very hard to believe. And how many years ago? How long did it take her to recover to show responsiveness?
Terri Shiavo only seem to be able to perform for family members and cannot repeat it for doctors. Over 15 years, only two nurses of the dozens to give her care noticed any "responsiveness". I remain skeptical of their claims.
I also note that you have cut and pasted the exact same response in two posts here. I hope that this was an oversight and you will be back to defend your posts. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/23/2005 07:56:11 |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 08:02:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Many states have laws to prevent what is loosely referred to as "the hand beyond the grave" that would probably make that an invalid request. Of course, your local probate attorney will be able to tell you what you can and cannot do and still have a valid Will.
Originally posted by Dude
Well, as you'd not YET be dead when they interfere with your wishes/living will, I don't think the "hand beyond the grave" would really apply here.
Well, it's out of context now, but it did apply to what trishran was considering, which was disinheriting any of her heirs who did not comply with her wishes. A Living Will does not deal with the decedent's property issues, only with their medical issues. The provision she stated would have to be made in a Last Will and Testament. You're right, no one is dead when that document is prepared (at least they're not supposed to be!) but everyone is dead when their Last Will and Testament comes before the Probate Court.
[/hijack]
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 10:06:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
More on Dr Hammeresfahr: He runs the Bammesfahr Neurological Institute in Clearwater, FL. He says he would use a hyperbaric chamber and administer drugs to dialate her blood vessels and increase bloodflow to the brain. He says her chances of getting better are "excellent."...
It shows how the parents were completely unable to find any respectable neurologist to support their claims. A Google search doesn't turn up much on this guy except his name being tossed around on forums like this one so he clearly isn't a respected neurologist.
The Institute doesn't have a respectable web page.
This site about the guy is full of lies despite only being 1/2 page.quote:
The results of this therapy have been so remarkable that Dr. Hammesfahr has written and lectured extensively about it and he has invited physicians, primarily based in universities
Then why no citations?
All his supposed peer reviewed publications are on Medforum.quote:
MedForum® presents an opportunity to publish work in a interactive peer reviewed journal designed from the ground up to foster more immediate medical communications and collaboration.
That is not peer reviewed publication. That is a forum. quote:
garnered him the 1999 nomination for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology
Then why isn't he in the Nobel Prize nominee data base?
Hammesfahr
Hammersfahr
Care to check another spelling? Here's the search page.
I'm late to the discussion, but here's some more on the Nobel Prize thing The point is that the only people claiming this are-- you'll be amazed when I say this-- the Right Wing media. And their zombie-like followers. |
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mike alexander
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 13:50:53 [Permalink]
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After the Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal this weekend, Tom Delay said: "When this tragic episode is resolved, the Supreme Court will have some serious questions to answer about its silence and arbitrary interpretation of federalism"
Um. Did Mr. DeLay just opine that the Supreme Court is answerable to Congress?
And is he passing out torches and pitchforks for the march on the Castle Frankenstein?
While the likelyhood is that this will all settle down quite a bit in the next couple of weeks, does anyone else see the remote potential for a - adre I say it - a bit of the ol' jihad? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26025 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 14:22:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by mike alexander
Um. Did Mr. DeLay just opine that the Supreme Court is answerable to Congress?
SCOTUS is, in a way, answerable to Congress, since Congress can pass laws which state that the SCOTUS will (or won't) hear certain types of cases. Regarding school prayer, for example, I read about someone demanding that Congress pass a law which would forbid SCOTUS from hearing First Amendment religious freedom and/or free exercise cases. At first, I didn't think they could do such a thing, either, but apparently the Constitution gives Congress just such powers (though I have yet to go double-check the actual text).
It's a wonder that they don't seem to exercise those powers very often. Perhaps it takes a unanimous vote. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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concern
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 14:31:29 [Permalink]
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| Spring is arriving, soon flowers will bloom, the birds will sing, the sweet sweet smell of Spring will surround us. But for Terry it's just another day. The same 4 walls the same old faces. For to many years she has felt nothing. The smell of a flower, the wind as it blows thru her hair, the sound of the birds in the trees, the feel of the sand between her toes, that has all been lost to her so many years ago. Do we not think that if she could, she would sit up and tell all please let me go. I love all of you but it's time, I have suffered enough. Do we think this is exactly how she chose to live the rest of her life. Condemn to a inner prison. Do you think she enjoys the tubes and prodding of the doctors. What about bed sores? What does she have to look forward to tomorrow. Her dignity's gone. She would want her family, friends all those who love her to remember how she was, full of life, smiles, happiness. She wouldn't want sorrow now. Her parents brought her into this world and gave her life. And she lived her life, sure it was proably cut short, but now it's time for her to go, to a better place, with no more suffering. She'll always be in there hearts, but it's time for all to heal now and to continue living there lives. Would this not be what she might want. Nobody ask to live in this sort of state. Her parents need to let her go, this will be the last greatest gift they can give her. No more suffering for her and for them to start to heal. Let her fly! |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 14:44:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by concern
Spring is arriving, soon flowers will bloom, the birds will sing, the sweet sweet smell of Spring will surround us. But for Terry it's just another day. The same 4 walls the same old faces. For to many years she has felt nothing. The smell of a flower, the wind as it blows thru her hair, the sound of the birds in the trees, the feel of the sand between her toes, that has all been lost to her so many years ago. Do we not think that if she could, she would sit up and tell all please let me go. I love all of you but it's time, I have suffered enough. Do we think this is exactly how she chose to live the rest of her life. Condemn to a inner prison. Do you think she enjoys the tubes and prodding of the doctors. What about bed sores? What does she have to look forward to tomorrow. Her dignity's gone. She would want her family, friends all those who love her to remember how she was, full of life, smiles, happiness. She wouldn't want sorrow now. Her parents brought her into this world and gave her life. And she lived her life, sure it was proably cut short, but now it's time for her to go, to a better place, with no more suffering. She'll always be in there hearts, but it's time for all to heal now and to continue living there lives. Would this not be what she might want. Nobody ask to live in this sort of state. Her parents need to let her go, this will be the last greatest gift they can give her. No more suffering for her and for them to start to heal. Let her fly!
It's a nice sentiment, but really Terry isn't suffering at all. She isn't imprisoned in her body, she's already gone. Her body is nothing but an empty shell. I do agree that her parents should let go, but for the good it will do them, not Terry.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 17:14:47 [Permalink]
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Regarding Terri:
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terri Schaivo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida. I hear the media calling her brain dead. Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree. Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped. Her father and mother say she is responsive. A former nurse that once treated her attests under sworn affidavit that she is responsive. So, who is right? Do not intelligent people know to error on the side of caution? Why do we purchase car insurance? I knew a man years ago who's wife had a similar stroke years before we met. She had just got to where she could roll her eyes and force a smile from one side of her mouth while tied in her chair. But smile she did when her husband would pet her head and read to her. She was starting to recover. Years earlier she was just like Terry. Be logical, be smart and be humane. If she isn't there, then it won't bother her to live. But, if she is there can the same be said to die?. Further I have been listening to so-called professionals telling how great and peaceful it is to die from dehydration and starvation. If so, why do we waist our money donating to Red Cross and disaster funds. Obviously those bloated little children are in ecstasy. I do not believe that for a moment. Neither should we settle on believing she is in peace. Some say, even so “I wouldn't want to live like that”. I sure wouldn't either. But there are people of money in better health than I that would rather be dead than live as I do now. It is not for us to say. It is her life and I an sure that it is every bit as precious to her. Now as far as the “parents” in the forum that insist “she died fifteen years ago”. The doctor that testified today contends that she was never treated for what her actual condition is. She has been miss-diagnosed for that long. But then I am sure you know better. Why is it every one just wants the problem to die and go away. Shame on you.
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Tim Gray |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13479 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 18:01:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Timgraysr:
Further I have been listening to so-called professionals telling how great and peaceful it is to die from dehydration and starvation. If so, why do we waist our money donating to Red Cross and disaster funds. Obviously those bloated little children are in ecstasy. I do not believe that for a moment.
Hmmmm… I suppose lethal injection would be much faster and more humane for all concerned. Problem is, the law does not allow for that.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 18:19:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
Regarding Terri:
This is unbelievable. Surly the people of this forum are smarter than to take a single opinion on the Terri Schaivo matter. Only a fool considers a matter without learning all there is to learn about it. Much like that idiot judge in Florida. I hear the media calling her brain dead. Yet there are doctors and other professionals that have visited her and disagree. Today one of these Doctors was in Congress trying to tell people that she could be helped. Her father and mother say she is responsive. A former nurse that once treated her attests under sworn affidavit that she is responsive. So, who is right? Do not intelligent people know to error on the side of caution? Why do we purchase car insurance? I knew a man years ago who's wife had a similar stroke years before we met. She had just got to where she could roll her eyes and force a smile from one side of her mouth while tied in her chair. But smile she did when her husband would pet her head and read to her. She was starting to recover. Years earlier she was just like Terry. Be logical, be smart and be humane.
The whole bolded part has already been answered in previous posts and as far as I can tell you do not bother to respond to those answers in any way. Are you a bot?
quote:
If she isn't there, then it won't bother her to live. But, if she is there can the same be said to die?. Further I have been listening to so-called professionals telling how great and peaceful it is to die from dehydration and starvation. If so, why do we waist our money donating to Red Cross and disaster funds. Obviously those bloated little children are in ecstasy. I do not believe that for a moment.
Oh please, don't be a hypocryte. Like starvation for someone in a persistent vegetative state is the same as starvation for someone who is aware.
quote:
Neither should we settle on believing she is in peace. Some say, even so “I wouldn't want to live like that”. I sure wouldn't either. But there are people of money in better health than I that would rather be dead than live as I do now.
Another non-argument.
quote:
It is not for us to say. It is her life and I an sure that it is every bit as precious to her. Now as far as the “parents” in the forum that insist “she died fifteen years ago”. The doctor that testified today contends that she was never treated for what her actual condition is. She has been miss-diagnosed for that long. But then I am sure you know better. Why is it every one just wants the problem to die and go away. Shame on you.
Which doctor is that? The only doctors I've read saying that aren't the least bit credible. They are hired by Terri's parents to say what they say. All the courts that have heard both sides have agreed that the credible medical opinion is that she is in a persistent vegetative state and has no chance of waking up. The arguments from both sides have been heard by the courts, and they have given a sensible ruling. She is not waking up, she is not aware, she has no chance on recovery, treatment has no use, if we look at the CT-scans we can see that the brain parts for cognitive function and |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 03/23/2005 18:22:31 |
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