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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2005 : 07:41:16 [Permalink]
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Some of you in this thread (ahem) are in the perilous position of defining quality of life for someone else--and of defining who is worthy of our health care resources and who isn't.
I worked in a nursing home for four years, and I saw residents whose lives seemed, on the surface, lonely and empty. But they didn't see their lives that way. Any psychologist will tell you that people can adapt to extraordinary circumstances and find peace and happiness again.
I realize that "lonely and empty" is a long way from "persistent vegetative state". Please don't think I'm making that comparison at all.
But there's a degree of arrogance and a lot of assumption in saying that Terri's life isn't worth living and she isn't worthy of our resources. Is she less worthy than a murder rotting away in prison for life...or a street junkie who pees on the bus and robs innocent people to feed his habit...or a 3-pack-a-day smoker who, surprise!, develops lung cancer?
The trouble is, our health care resources really *are* limited. We have to make these terrible choices as to who-gets-how-much. And we bring our biases, projections, and fears into the decision-making process.
Filth, I sat down a few years ago to make a living will, 'cause I know it's the right thing to do. And I stumbled over it. I couldn't finish it...I freaked and felt confused. I didn't know what I wanted to do.  |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 08:24:48 [Permalink]
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I discussed my wishes with my husband on this issue last night, and reminded him of my Living Will. He said he knew how I felt, but that it would be a difficult decision for him to make. I had to really spend some time driving home to him he would not be making the decision, I have already made the decision.
I have two close friends who have lost loved ones after a lengthy illness. While they miss the person terribly, they have both reluctantly admitted they were relieved when the end finally came. They both feel guilty for feeling relieved. I think it is important not only to make a Living Will, but to also be sure your next of kin knows the decision is made by you, and not them.
No one should feel guilty for carrying out another person's wishes.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 09:00:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
I have two close friends who have lost loved ones after a lengthy illness. While they miss the person terribly, they have both reluctantly admitted they were relieved when the end finally came. They both feel guilty for feeling relieved. I think it is important not only to make a Living Will, but to also be sure your next of kin knows the decision is made by you, and not them.
I had a cousin. He had Down syndrome. His parents never cared for him; they were ashamed of him. We know people with mental disabilities need special care; that sort of care, he hadn't. I heard my aunt once say, "He wants to eat; what will I do? I will not spend money with Alex (= cousin)."
He was obese, lived a miserable life in a locked room, eating whenever he felt like, bathing whenever he felt like. Christ, he couldn't even sleep, unless he slept sitting.
Eventually, his body couldn't take it anymore. He collapsed and was kept in a hospital between coma and awareness, with horrible pressure wounds, infections, kidney problems, heart problems, lung problems. He died after six months (he wasn't plugged out; his body just couldn't resist any longer).
What would be more merciful? End his suffering early - knowing he'd most likely never recover, and if he did, it'd be just a question of time until it happened all over again (as my aunt would certainly not change - she's in denial; she's sure he had NOTHING WRONG and was HEALTHY, even being +70kg overweight) or let him live like that, miserable and without even basic care? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 02/25/2005 09:02:24 |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 09:16:10 [Permalink]
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Siberia, if you were replying to me in your most recent post, please let me clarify. As I'm sure you know, your cousin was not competent to make decisions for himself, and could not make a Living Will.
I am not saying that only those who can make a Living Will deserve mercy. I am truly sorry for your cousin's suffering. The post (I think) you responded to was written to encourage those who read here and do have the ability to act on their own behalf legally to do so. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 09:26:59 [Permalink]
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I encourage people to remeber this is an emotional issue as well as a practical one. The fact that Terri was in a coma for 15 year I think speaks loudly about her chances of coming out of it unharmed if ever. But it is very hard to let someone go that you love. Heck I was a mess when I had to put my first cat down....
But it is still a disition that can, in fact has to be, balanced between the two. Emotion says keep them on life support forever, practical says take them off as soon as posible. There is a middle ground, though 15 years would be really pushing my practical side... |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 09:48:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
Siberia, if you were replying to me in your most recent post, please let me clarify. As I'm sure you know, your cousin was not competent to make decisions for himself, and could not make a Living Will.
I am not saying that only those who can make a Living Will deserve mercy. I am truly sorry for your cousin's suffering. The post (I think) you responded to was written to encourage those who read here and do have the ability to act on their own behalf legally to do so.
No worry; I understood it correctly  I was just using as a hook for another thing. I'm the one who didn't express myself correctly. Let me try.
What I was trying to say: what if the person can't be accounted as responsible (such as my cousin)? What should be done, in such case? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 10:24:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
Siberia, if you were replying to me in your most recent post, please let me clarify. As I'm sure you know, your cousin was not competent to make decisions for himself, and could not make a Living Will.
I am not saying that only those who can make a Living Will deserve mercy. I am truly sorry for your cousin's suffering. The post (I think) you responded to was written to encourage those who read here and do have the ability to act on their own behalf legally to do so.
No worry; I understood it correctly I was just using as a hook for another thing. I'm the one who didn't express myself correctly. Let me try.
What I was trying to say: what if the person can't be accounted as responsible (such as my cousin)? What should be done, in such case?
In the case of your cousin, what should be done is in the eyes of the primary caregiver/guardian in charge of making medical decisions. They have to weight out the moral implications of their actions.
In the case of Schiavo, her husband is responsible for medical decisions concerning his wife. He has come to the decision though a lot of soul searching, introspection, and competent medical advice. I have to respect that decision. That I agree with his assessment based on my own moral guidelines and medical opinions expressed by Terry's primary caregivers is tangetal to the discussion.
After my grandmother passed in 1990, my father expressed to me that should he be in a persistant vegitative state I was to allow the machines to be unplugged. This is not something that I am looking forward to, but in deference to my father's expressed wishes I am prepared to do it. I can only hope it never comes to that.
Renea, I am mindful of limited resources in healthcare, but I don't think anyone here is suggesting that there should be some sort of legal guideline to who gets let go and who doesn't. We all have different responses to what constitutes mercy. Some believe as I do that when the brain is no longer capable of higher or even midrange functionality, the person is effectively dead although the body lives on. Some here do not and believe a show of mercy would be keeping people hooked up to machines until the organs degrade and fail.
Mr. Schiavo has made his decision. The courts have upheld it. We should respect his decision. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 11:04:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
In the case of your cousin, what should be done is in the eyes of the primary caregiver/guardian in charge of making medical decisions. They have to weight out the moral implications of their actions.
Even when the primary cause of his condition was neglect?
I agree that Mr. Schiavo's situation is quite different, and that his decision must be respected. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 11:20:28 [Permalink]
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Perhaps it could be a matter of negligence charges?...not saying it should be.
My problem is this, what happens when we can keep bodies alive forever?
{Warning you may find the following opinions offensive and I dont care if you do}
Personally im way out there on this issue, I think its criminal to waste resources like this on one person, especially in a brain-dead state. In my Dictatorship(thanks nationstates), comas get 3 months, tops. (Exceptions only lead to loop-holes) Take the responsibility out of the family's hands, all persons would be forced by law to make wills/living wills at the emancipation age and be subject to review every few years. Oh and suicide would not be illegal, but failed suicides would be punishable by death...seriously. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 11:36:09 [Permalink]
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| Fortunately, BigPapaSmurf, you aren't the arbiter of what qualifies as a worthwhile life. You have no logical basis or moral authority to define quality of life for another person. For yourself, yes. For others...never. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 11:45:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Oh and suicide would not be illegal, but failed suicides would be punishable by death...seriously.
The death penalty for something that isn't illegal? |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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belt
New Member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 12:01:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
comas get 3 months, tops. (Exceptions only lead to loop-holes)
Yow, I'd have one dead friend if that was the case. A car accident left my friend Darrah in a coma for almost 4 months back in 1992 when she was 16. She bought a condo last month! Good thing BigpapaS isn't dictator...yet.
Can't believe I broke my lurker status just for this post. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 12:13:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by belt
Can't believe I broke my lurker status just for this post.
I'm glad you did. Welcome to SFN, belt. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 12:41:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by belt
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
comas get 3 months, tops. (Exceptions only lead to loop-holes)
Yow, I'd have one dead friend if that was the case. A car accident left my friend Darrah in a coma for almost 4 months back in 1992 when she was 16. She bought a condo last month! Good thing BigpapaS isn't dictator...yet.
Can't believe I broke my lurker status just for this post.
Hi belt and welcome to the daylight. 
As your friend, whom I am happy for, nicely points out, it is impossible to set arbitrary rules for something like this. Which is why my living will is arbitrary.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Quinlin girl continue to live even after they 'pulled the plug?'
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 12:44:18 [Permalink]
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Wow I busted a lurker, then again I knew I would be touching a nerve, hence the disclaimer.
Oh and suicide would not be illegal, failed suicide would be illegal. So you better make damn well sure you wanna go out, before you try.
These are the more palatable laws in my scientific dystopia, you dont want to know the Primary Decree. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/25/2005 12:57:46 |
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