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belt
New Member
USA
17 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2005 : 13:44:53 [Permalink]
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argh...and this just in...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7031915/
"Three week stay in life-support case
Judge sets March 18 to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube"
Thanks for the welcome all. BPS, come on now...tell us the primary decree!
*edit: on another note, is there any way to take her off life support but not have her die via starvation? "Just in case" something in there can still feel pain. |
| Edited by - belt on 02/25/2005 13:46:18 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 13:47:38 [Permalink]
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Maybe in another thread where we discuss our own king of the world decrees, lets just say that the human rights division would be under PETA.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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belt
New Member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 13:55:45 [Permalink]
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| Fair enough. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 14:17:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by belt
argh...and this just in...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7031915/
"Three week stay in life-support case
Judge sets March 18 to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube"
Thanks for the welcome all. BPS, come on now...tell us the primary decree!
*edit: on another note, is there any way to take her off life support but not have her die via starvation? "Just in case" something in there can still feel pain.
I don't know of any other than giving pain medication. Oregon has the assisted suicide law, but I don't how it would apply to this case even if she were in Oregon.
Perhaps Beskeptigal can help us out with the medical end of it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 14:20:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Quinlin girl continue to live even after they 'pulled the plug?'
Yes, she did. For ten years!
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 20:46:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Quinlin girl continue to live even after they 'pulled the plug?'
Typically, when the phrase "pull the plug" is uses, it is in reference to artificial ventilation.
The "plug" was pulled on Schaivo long ago. What has been ongoing for the last decade+ is artificial feeding. With proper nutrition/htdration a young body can live (I use the term loosely) for decades as long as the autonomic functions of the brain are intact.
And Renae, nobody is arguing (except maby BPS) that we can make decisions for other people. Allthough you can (and I do) make a strong argument that continued healthcare and artificial life support are unjustifiably cruel for those who have no chance of recovery to a meaningfull existence. In the Schaivo case there is no chance she will ever make any type of recovery to a life that contains any quality.
These situations always have to be considered on a case by case basis, but there is definitely a place for objective assessment criteria to help determine the best course of action.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 21:38:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
My heart aches for Terri's parents.
Because they have no control? I agree. Because they are doing the right thing? I disagree. They have turned to the public for support which, while understandable given their loss of control, is, if Mr S is sincere, a horrible hateful thing to do to him.
So many people are so quick to assume the parents are the victims here when we don't know it isn't the husband who is.
And Terri is no longer the victim for those of you who believe she is. The woman has no cortical brain function according to my understanding of the medical reports, which of course I have no way of verifying but that's another issue. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 21:52:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Some of you in this thread (ahem) are in the perilous position of defining quality of life for someone else--and of defining who is worthy of our health care resources and who isn't.
.................
The trouble is, our health care resources really *are* limited. We have to make these terrible choices as to who-gets-how-much. And we bring our biases, projections, and fears into the decision-making process.
Are these two statements even compatible? No wonder you are torn here. The bottom line is we would rather spend billions on war and worthless medical remedies than provide food, shelter and the best medical care for everyone on the planet. Drive your car, starve an orphan in Darfur. Let's ban worthless products, stop the war, walk to work, and keep every person alive with machines as long as possible. Yes, I am feeling a bit wacko.
A lot of those decisions on priorities are just not something we want to deal with in our personal lives. But aside from using Terri's support funds for more useful purposes, just as you can claim we can't judge the worthiness of a life, we also can't assume every single person prefers life to whatever may follow.
I've worked in a few of those nursing homes as well and heard some people praying for 'God' to, "take me please".
quote:
Filth, I sat down a few years ago to make a living will, 'cause I know it's the right thing to do. And I stumbled over it. I couldn't finish it...I freaked and felt confused. I didn't know what I wanted to do. 
So make one that says what you do know you want. You don't have to use the pre-fab form.
"I want everything up to ......." |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 21:57:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Perhaps it could be a matter of negligence charges?...not saying it should be.
My problem is this, what happens when we can keep bodies alive forever?
We won't except for the rich who can afford it and chances are their heirs won't go along.
quote:
Personally im way out there on this issue, I think its criminal to waste resources like this on one person, especially in a brain-dead state. In my Dictatorship(thanks nationstates), comas get 3 months, tops. (Exceptions only lead to loop-holes) Take the responsibility out of the family's hands, all persons would be forced by law to make wills/living wills at the emancipation age and be subject to review every few years. Oh and suicide would not be illegal, but failed suicides would be punishable by death...seriously.
Please review the medical research before you go with the 3 month rule, that's waay too short. For the rest, see my post above about walking to work. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 21:59:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by belt
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
comas get 3 months, tops. (Exceptions only lead to loop-holes)
Yow, I'd have one dead friend if that was the case. A car accident left my friend Darrah in a coma for almost 4 months back in 1992 when she was 16. She bought a condo last month! Good thing BigpapaS isn't dictator...yet.
Can't believe I broke my lurker status just for this post.
Hi, nice post. I am pleased you have such a fine example to back the post I just wrote about reviewing the medical research on the 3 month rule. Welcome lurker. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 22:12:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by belt
.....
*edit: on another note, is there any way to take her off life support but not have her die via starvation? "Just in case" something in there can still feel pain.
I don't know of any other than giving pain medication. Oregon has the assisted suicide law, but I don't how it would apply to this case even if she were in Oregon.
Perhaps Beskeptigal can help us out with the medical end of it.
While I personally have not pushed the syringe plunger, I have personally witnessed several persons taken off the ventilator then given enough morphine to prevent them breathing themselves into one of those vegetative states. It is a very common ICU practice when all agree it's time. I did witness this with one cystic fibrosis patient who couldn't be weaned from the vent and asked to be taken off of it anyway. She was the only one I saw that was not in a coma at the time it was done. For those of you unfamiliar with cystic fibrosis these people have to fight to stay alive their whole lives and death comes by their early 30s usually with the next untreatable pneumonia. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 23:27:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
The "plug" was pulled on Schaivo long ago. What has been ongoing for the last decade+ is artificial feeding. With proper nutrition/htdration a young body can live (I use the term loosely) for decades as long as the autonomic functions of the brain are intact.
No breathing aperatus, but has to be force fed? No wonder her family thinks she is alive. That is a tough one, and not one I would like to make a call on. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2005 : 07:12:33 [Permalink]
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I think this thread has become offensive to me, and I'll not read any further.
Beskeptical, my heart aches for Terri's parents because their child is about to DIE. And please, if I read one more thoughtless "she's already dead" post, I'll hurl. Their baby is about to slowly starve to death, soon to be gone off the face of the earth forever. If you can't feel compassion for them in this loss (regardless of whatever state you believe Terri is in), then there's something wrong (and I speak to a general 'you' here, not to any specific 'you.')
I held my grandmother's hand while a respirator breathed for her. Eventually, she breathed on her own again. She survived, with mild dementia, for about another year. We had no idea whether deciding to ventilate her was the right decision at the time; she was struggling so hard to breathe. It was heartbreaking and I remember feeling deeply conflicted. As someone who has pneumonia a second time, I can tell you it sucks major time to fight for air. It makes you feel panicky and helpless. I can't imagine how frightened my grandmother was with her lungs failing, nor how lonely and confused she felt in her last year at the nursing home.
Even with a living will, *someone* has to make the decision to interpret and follow it. My former fiancee is a male nurse in a nursing home, and he sees family members wrestle with this every day of his life. He told me that few families are *ever* at peace with their decision--living will or not, hopeless situation or not. They second-guess themselves, they agonize, and they grieve.
If only real-life situations were as simple and clear-cut as some of you seem to think they are. Sometimes there *isn't* a right or wrong decision and there isn't a universal truth, and we live with the best decision we can make in the moment.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2005 : 12:21:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
So many people are so quick to assume the parents are the victims here when we don't know it isn't the husband who is.
The husband is definitely the victim here. His rights have been violated and his legal authority to make decisions unjustly stripped from him by the legal system and his inlaws.
He's been forced to watch his wife linger, in a persistent vegitative state, for a decade longer than this should have gone on. Forced, by people who were supposed to be his family.
quote:
And please, if I read one more thoughtless "she's already dead" post, I'll hurl. Their baby is about to slowly starve to death, soon to be gone off the face of the earth forever. If you can't feel compassion for them in this loss (regardless of whatever state you believe Terri is in), then there's something wrong (and I speak to a general 'you' here, not to any specific 'you.')
Well, I guess there is something "wrong" with me then. Because this woman is already dead, and has been for a long time.
I find her parents to be reprehensible. They refuse to acknoledge the evidence of their own eyes, refuse to listen to the vast majority of medical opinion (and believe me, there have been MANY doctors on this case), are so far into denial that they had their lawyer hire a doctor who would give a medical opinion that supports their cause, they have shopped legal venues every time a judge ruled in favor of the husband.
And so on.
They are pathetic human beings, IMO.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2005 : 14:12:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I think this thread has become offensive to me, and I'll not read any further.
Beskeptical, my heart aches for Terri's parents because their child is about to DIE. ...
Yes, I agree and I think that side of it, the parent's pain, is very sad. They obviously can still feel their daughter is with them despite her condition. And were there no other people involved, they should be able to have their comfort visiting their child.
My point was we from the outside cannot know all of the facts nor the husband's feelings. How can you or I say, the parents hurt more than the husband? As painful as it might be for Terri to die, it might be equally as painful for the husband to see her denied a peaceful death.
I have seen many people die in the hospital. I have lost a boyfriend when I was 16, my father 6 months after my son was born, both of my grandparents, (the other 2 died before I was born), and now my sister-in-law. Death is sometimes peaceful. Not everyone fights it, nor fears it. Those left behind suffer terrible feelings of loss. But one cannot judge everything by the standard of avoid death at all costs.
Sometimes you have to accept avoiding death is no longer the best thing to do. That is sometimes true when there is no hope of recovery. Just keeping a body alive in a nursing home might be the right decision for some, but how can we condemn this husband for deciding it is not the right decision for his wife? |
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