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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2005 : 09:12:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by kmay
Here's a link to get the history and information without the slant of the media: http://www.terrisfight.org/
She meets no legal definition of a "shell" and, in fact, could have rights to therapy that should put Michael on the defensive.
Her husband certainly does not have Terri's best interest at heart. Divorce her, but don't kill her, when her parents are more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt!
Been there, it has the slant of Terri's parents.
Sorry, majority medical opinion goes a lot farther with me. My analysis is that who Terri was died. The shell lives on devoid of cerebral cortex function.
I stand by my assessment of Terri's husband's motivation. As you know, Terri's parents are now trying to wrest guardianship away from Michael. They have consistantly lost court case after court case and are reduced to this. All they can offer is character assassination.
If they fail here, what legal venue shopping will they do to prolong this painful decision? What damage do they wish to do to the legal system and the status of spouses to direct medical care for diabled partners in the name of keeping Terri alive?
Your assumption is that we have not researched the issue. Your assumption is incorrect.
Welcome to SFN, kmay. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 09:31:27 [Permalink]
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| Um on the whole attempted suicide is illegal thing that was for my imaginary dictatorship folks. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 10:44:20 [Permalink]
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They are in quite a frenzy at rapture ready. Everyone is praying to keep Terri alive. Of course no one is praying for a recovery and no one is questioning why God put her in this shape to begin with.
This whole prayer thing is a complete mystery to me. Is god not paying attention and you have to pray to get him to notice? Maybe god requires a certain amount of praying before he acts. So does that mean that there needs to be a certain number of people praying before you cross a threshold for him to listen? Or is it the quality of the praying? Or is it the prayer's religion - does he prefer one over the others?
I guess it is actually the quality of the praying now that I reflect on the bible, OT. When they toast up a lamb in the OT it is stated that god savors the sweet smell (paraphrasing). So he does listen when he is worshipped. Cain killed Abel because god clearly liked Abel's sacrifice (a lamb) more than he liked Cain's sacrifice (wheat, crops). So he listens, and responds to being worshipped based on the quality of the worship.
So there you have it - if god causes someone to get brain cancer and you pray just the right way he will take notice and he may change his mind and not kill the person. Therefore, if a loved one dies it is your fault for not praying the right way.
I just realized that if Terri does have her feeding tube removed that would indicate that god is ignoring the rapture ready group because they are praying 'incorrectly'.
We shall see.
PS. This stupid post doesn't mean that I don't feel the greatest sympathy for everyone involved in that poor family.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 12:11:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
It's also illegal in IL and many other states.
I have been reading the Illinois statutes and have been unable to find a law against attempted suicide. Could you point me in the right direction, Valiant Dancer?
Also, I do not want to hijack this thread, but I'd be interested in what other states are the "many" you mentioned (other than the dictatorship of BPS  ). I repeated my search this morning and got the same results I did with my original post (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma).
(edited for spelling)
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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| Edited by - Wendy on 03/01/2005 14:27:48 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 12:33:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
They are in quite a frenzy at rapture ready. Everyone is praying to keep Terri alive. Of course no one is praying for a recovery and no one is questioning why God put her in this shape to begin with.
This whole prayer thing is a complete mystery to me. Is god not paying attention and you have to pray to get him to notice? Maybe god requires a certain amount of praying before he acts. So does that mean that there needs to be a certain number of people praying before you cross a threshold for him to listen? Or is it the quality of the praying? Or is it the prayer's religion - does he prefer one over the others?
I guess it is actually the quality of the praying now that I reflect on the bible, OT. When they toast up a lamb in the OT it is stated that god savors the sweet smell (paraphrasing). So he does listen when he is worshipped. Cain killed Abel because god clearly liked Abel's sacrifice (a lamb) more than he liked Cain's sacrifice (wheat, crops). So he listens, and responds to being worshipped based on the quality of the worship.
So there you have it - if god causes someone to get brain cancer and you pray just the right way he will take notice and he may change his mind and not kill the person. Therefore, if a loved one dies it is your fault for not praying the right way.
I just realized that if Terri does have her feeding tube removed that would indicate that god is ignoring the rapture ready group because they are praying 'incorrectly'.
We shall see.
PS. This stupid post doesn't mean that I don't feel the greatest sympathy for everyone involved in that poor family.
Furshur, they do not pray for Terri; she is merely an excuse for piety. They pray for themselves.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 12:47:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Furshur, they do not pray for Terri; she is merely an excuse for piety. They pray for themselves.
Well said filthy.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 14:51:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by kmay
Here's a link to get the history and information without the slant of the media: http://www.terrisfight.org/
She meets no legal definition of a "shell" and, in fact, could have rights to therapy that should put Michael on the defensive.
Obviously she meets the legal definition unless you are ignoring the 'legal' ruling. The link on your site to "parent's ask courts for a re-evaluation" doesn't work.
I can't see the videos in their current format on my computer. But I have seen other clips of her supposed purposeful actions and they were not convincing. Any one can edit a clip to make a reflex look purposeful.
You'd have to assume the doctors were evil if you think the medical consensus was fraudulent and Terri was not in a PVS. Why would the doctors not be neutral? Do you think the medical community is out to kill off people with some cortical mental function that isn't up to their standards? Doctors are going to go with the evidence and the medical standards, period. You might find one doctor who makes a crappy assessment, but it seems pretty clear this was an assessment made by more than one doctor or Terri's parent's lawyers would have had a legal case. They didn't.
quote:
Her husband certainly does not have Terri's best interest at heart. Divorce her, but don't kill her, when her parents are more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt!
This is exactly why my brother, who has walked in this husband's shoes, told me how badly he feels for this husband.
My brother said something akin to, "Everyone has made the decision about you and your motives when they have no idea how you feel. They have no idea how painful it is to lose your wife, whom you loved dearly. Instead, they think they know better than you and you are judged completely unfairly by these people."
People like you, kmay. I welcome you to the forum but I can't help feeling your attack against this man equates to a similar attack on my very much grieving brother. How could you possibly know how this man feels? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/01/2005 14:53:53 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 17:23:33 [Permalink]
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When I went looking for laws against attempted suicide a few days ago, I ran across a book review for some tome which allegedly detailed the history of anti-suicide legislation, from England's common law up to the present day. From what I remember, there used to be laws against suicide and attempted suicide in every state, but these began to disappear as depression was recognized as a mental illness. It was suggested that no states now have laws against attempted suicide, though they may have laws demanding psychiatric evaluation after attempted suicide.
But, I wasn't paying that much attention to what I was looking at, 'cause it wasn't what I was really looking for. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 07:51:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
When I went looking for laws against attempted suicide a few days ago, I ran across a book review for some tome which allegedly detailed the history of anti-suicide legislation, from England's common law up to the present day. From what I remember, there used to be laws against suicide and attempted suicide in every state, but these began to disappear as depression was recognized as a mental illness. It was suggested that no states now have laws against attempted suicide, though they may have laws demanding psychiatric evaluation after attempted suicide.
But, I wasn't paying that much attention to what I was looking at, 'cause it wasn't what I was really looking for.
Thanks, Dave. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 04:59:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why? Because they misinterpret signs to think that their daughter is still alive? To view reflexes and independent breathing to think that she is alive? Terris parents aren't doctors, they aren't capable of seeing what is going on. They are parents who still think their daughter may recover, against all hopes, and don't want to lose them. They are no more or less the victim than the husband is.
Entirely untrue.
Yes, the whole thing is a tragedy. I'm not saying it isn't.
But these parents have access to the same doctors who have diagnosed their daughter as being in a PVS. They have been told, by every doctor they didn't PAY to intentionally say otherwise, that their daughter will never recover.
There is no treatment for anoxic brain injury. There is no chance, after 15 years, that she will just wake up. She will "live" until her body (due to not being able to care for herself) goes through one septic event to many.
It is vile and inhumane to artificially maintain a human body "alive" in these circumstances. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 08:35:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Why? Because they misinterpret signs to think that their daughter is still alive? To view reflexes and independent breathing to think that she is alive? Terris parents aren't doctors, they aren't capable of seeing what is going on. They are parents who still think their daughter may recover, against all hopes, and don't want to lose them. They are no more or less the victim than the husband is.
Entirely untrue.
Yes, the whole thing is a tragedy. I'm not saying it isn't.
But these parents have access to the same doctors who have diagnosed their daughter as being in a PVS. They have been told, by every doctor they didn't PAY to intentionally say otherwise, that their daughter will never recover.
There is no treatment for anoxic brain injury. There is no chance, after 15 years, that she will just wake up. She will "live" until her body (due to not being able to care for herself) goes through one septic event to many.
It is vile and inhumane to artificially maintain a human body "alive" in these circumstances.
On the other hand, it's a hell of a good way to become a 'media martyr.' 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 10:38:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
It's also illegal in IL and many other states.
I have been reading the Illinois statutes and have been unable to find a law against attempted suicide. Could you point me in the right direction, Valiant Dancer?
Also, I do not want to hijack this thread, but I'd be interested in what other states are the "many" you mentioned (other than the dictatorship of BPS ). I repeated my search this morning and got the same results I did with my original post (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma).
(edited for spelling)
Wendy,
It appears that I am incorrect concerning attempted suicide being illegal in IL. I did find this which makes it illegal to coerce someone into suicide or helping them commit suicide.
(720 ILCS 5/12#8209;31) (from Ch. 38, par. 12#8209;31)
Sec. 12#8209;31. Inducement to Commit Suicide.
(a) A person commits the offense of inducement to commit suicide when he or she does either of the following:
(1) Coerces another to commit suicide and the other
person commits or attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the coercion, and he or she exercises substantial control over the other person through (i) control of the other person's physical location or circumstances; (ii) use of psychological pressure; or (iii) use of actual or ostensible religious, political, social, philosophical or other principles.
(2) With knowledge that another person intends to
commit or attempt to commit suicide, intentionally (i) offers and provides the physical means by which another person commits or attempts to commit suicide, or (ii) participates in a physical act by which another person commits or attempts to commit suicide.
For the purposes of this Section, "attempts to commit suicide" means any act done with the intent to commit suicide and which constitutes a substantial step toward commission of suicide.
(b) Sentence. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(1) when the other person commits suicide as a direct result of the coercion is a Class 2 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) when the other person commits suicide as a direct result of the assistance provided is a Class 4 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(1) when the other person attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the coercion is a Class 3 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) when the other person attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the assistance provided is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) The lawful compliance or a good#8209;faith attempt at lawful compliance with the Illinois Living Will Act, the Health Care Surrogate Act, or the Powers of Attorney for Health Care Law is not inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) of this Section.
(Source: P.A. 87#8209;1167; 88#8209;392.)
I regret the error. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 11:55:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Wendy,
It appears that I am incorrect concerning attempted suicide being illegal in IL. I did find this which makes it illegal to coerce someone into suicide or helping them commit suicide.
I saw that also, but that's another issue entirely.
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I regret the error.
No harm done. I make them all the time myself.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 13:11:21 [Permalink]
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Well I saw part of the parents' interview this week and it was very clear they have false hopes. When asked if her daughter responded differently to the Mom, the Mom answered, "uh...well...mmm...uh yah, I guess so, ...uh sometimes, yah sometimes", or something to that effect. It was clear the Mom wasn't seeing any specific responses from their daughter. The Mom also said Teri tries to speak but just can't quite do it, and all Teri needs is therapy, and I've been trying to work with Teri....and so on.
The only sensible thing that I heard was the husband had a conflict of interest in the case. That doesn't mean he is acting on that conflict of interest which is the assumption everyone is making, but you could argue the husband has a conflict.
I still have no guilt in the thought the parents need to let this woman die in peace. And the parent's claim starving to death would be a horrible death is absurd. You could break this woman's bones and she wouldn't feel it.
Which also leads me to add, the reason the claims of abuse were not substantiated against the husband re the evidence of fractures was the fact he wasn't taking care of her when they happened. So if one is thinking Teri is not suffering, then what does it mean she occasionally has suffered broken bones in giving her routine care. If you believe she isn't brain dead, she is suffering. |
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thetrue
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2005 : 16:57:12 [Permalink]
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Have any of you checked out terrisfight.org ? Google Terri Schiavo and you'll find it.
On it you can watch videos of Terri obviously interacting with doctors, visitors, and her mother. This is not the "brain dead" person that some of the posters I've read here have proclaimed her to be. Visit the site. Watch for yourselves. She is not a shell. There is life in her. There is light. There is joy you can see in her smile and hear in her laughter.
Maybe there is much we can learn yet from this woman's life, those who still cherish it, those willing to continue to nourish it, and those willing to fight for it.
"for my power is made perfect in weakness" 2 Cor. 12:9
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