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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2005 : 12:17:17 [Permalink]
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And now the Vatican has, predictably, joined this ghastly circle-jerk.
quote:
By ALESSANDRA RIZZO, Associated Press Writer
VATICAN CITY - The Vatican (news - web sites) newspaper on Monday criticized the removal of a feeding tube from a brain-damaged Florida woman, saying nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies.
Who can, before God and humanity, pretend with impunity to claim such a right?" L'Osservatore Romano said. "Who — and on the basis of which criteria — can establish to whom the 'privilege' to live should be given?"
The remarks from the Vatican paper, which reflected earlier comments from several Vatican prelates, came after the U.S. Congress passed a law in an emergency session giving Terri Schiavo's parents the right to file suit in federal court over the withdrawal of nourishment and medical treatment needed to sustain their daughter. President Bush (news - web sites) has signed the bill.
"Who can judge the dignity and sacredness of the life of a human being, made in the image and likeness of God? Who can decide to pull the plug as if we were talking about a broken or out of order household appliance?" the paper said.
"In a Miami hospital there's a woman who is about to die from hunger and thirst. There is the slow dying of a person — not a 'vegetable' — which an impotent world is witnessing through TV and newspapers."
Fine words, you sanctimonius prick -- tell them to the impoverished black woman in TX who had her baby taken off life support due to her being unable to pay; due to a law that another sanctimonous prick signed when he was playing at being governer. The heartless rat-bastard signed off on this travesty as well. It's good neo-Republican politics and that takes precidence over all.
And that is what the remains of Terri Schiavo and her family, have become reduced to: helpless, political tetherballs to be batted around a pole by lower-than-scum people who couldn't care less for her or them.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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thetrue
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 13:18:13 [Permalink]
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Kate Adamson, Airlie Kirkham, Patricia White Bull, Jacqueline Cole, and Carrie Coons...etc. All were diagnosed with Persistent or Permanent Vegetative State. All astounded their doctors and caregivers. All have regained consciousness and the ability to communicate to various but significant degrees.
Sarah Scantlin, though not specifically diagnosed with PVS was in a coma for 20 years. She was not expected to recover. Completely unresponsive for many years, Sarah did at one point (years later) begin making strange sounds that they were not sure were purposeful or meaningful. Then blinking. Then, February of this year, the woman sits up in bed and asks questions. She then calls her mother. Amazing.
And check out Kate Adamson's own personal account of having her feeding tube pulled. She was not even responsive as Terri is. Kate could not communicate at all except through blinking, and even then it was questioned. Google it and read for yourselves. http://www.rense.com/general44/vege.htm She and her doctor gave an interview with Bill O'Reilly.
And the Florida statute I found states thus: "In the state of Florida, the only ground which needs to be proven is that the marriage is irretrievably broken or the mental incapacity of one of the parties. However, if a party is mentally incapacitated, a dissolution shall not be allowed unless the party alleged to be incapacitated has been adjudged incapacitated according to the provisions of Florida Statute §744.331 for a proceeding period of at least three (3) years."
So, yes, according to this Michael could divorce her.
Look up for yourselves how Michael and an Attorney Jay Wolfson have worked against allowing testing to see if Terri can now swallow and take nourishment by mouth. There is a Wolfson report that can be read.
It appears that Michael early on did allow/provide for testing and rehab. It's understandable that one would lose hope over the years. At some point he did decide it was enough and has since refused rehab, testing, and feedings by mouth. You can read for yourselves claims by nurses regarding feedings by mouth and Michael's decisions. What if any of those other people listed above had had their decisions makers give up completely on them too? Their doctors hadn't given any of them hope for recovery either. They lingered for weeks, months, years, decades in vegetative states. They could all have been starved to death too. Yet they were given time and life.
Again, doctors have been astounded by the gains made by patients with the same or similar diagnosis. There's still much that remains a mystery. They're all still learning, as are we all. Instead of sentencing her to die, how about giving her a chance at rehabilitation.
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| Edited by - thetrue on 03/21/2005 13:50:12 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 13:49:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
Kate Adamson, Airlie Kirkham, Patricia White Bull, Jacqueline Cole, Carrie Coons, Christine Busalacchi...etc. All were diagnosed with Persistent or Permanent Vegetative State. All astounded their doctors and caregivers. All have regained consciousness and the ability to communicate to various but significant degrees.
Sarah Scantlin, though not specifically diagnosed with PVS was in a coma for 20 years. She was not expected to recover. Completely unresponsive for many years, Sarah did at one point (years later) begin making strange sounds that they were not sure were purposeful or meaningful. Then blinking. Then, February of this year, the woman sits up in bed and asks questions. She then calls her mother. Amazing.
And check out Kate Adamson's own personal account of having her feeding tube pulled. She was not even responsive as Terri is. Kate could not communicate at all except through blinking, and even then it was questioned. Google it and read for yourselves. http://www.rense.com/general44/vege.htm She and her doctor gave an interview with Bill O'Reilly.
Adamson, according to the account, was in a vegetative state for 70 days. She was able to show her caregivers some response. This is not true of Shiavo. Also, the Hastings Report seems to be commenting on those people misdiagnosed as having PVS under a short period of time. That Shiavo has had this diagnosis confirmed repeatedly is a completely different case altogether. Scantalin is not relavent to the conversation as the subject is not long term coma, but instead long term PVS with severe brain damage.
quote:
And the Florida statute I found states thus: "In the state of Florida, the only ground which needs to be proven is that the marriage is irretrievably broken or the mental incapacity of one of the parties. However, if a party is mentally incapacitated, a dissolution shall not be allowed unless the party alleged to be incapacitated has been adjudged incapacitated according to the provisions of Florida Statute §744.331 for a proceeding period of at least three (3) years."
So, yes, according to this Michael could divorce her.
I'd like to know the statue you are quoting here. I cannot find it on Florida's compiled statues online. Correction. Found it. However, it does not release him from paying for care.
quote:
Look up for yourselves how Michael and an Attorney Jay Wolfson have worked against allowing testing to see if Terri can now swallow and take nourishment by mouth. There is a Wolfson report that can be read.
It appears that Michael early on did allow/provide for testing and rehab. It's understandable that one would lose hope over the years. At some point he did decide it was enough and has since refused rehab, testing, and feedings by mouth. You can read for yourselves claims by nurses regarding feedings by mouth and Michael's decisions. What if any of those other people listed above had had their decisions makers give up completely on them too? Their doctors hadn't given any of them hope for recovery either. They lingered for weeks, months, years, decades in vegetative states. They could all have been starved to death too. Yet they were given time and life.
Source cite, please. Telling us to look it up ourselves does not lend credence to your statements.
quote:
Again, doctors have been astounded by the gains made by patients with the same or similar diagnosis. There's still much that remains a mystery. They're all still learning, as are we all. Instead of sentencing her to die, how about giving her a chance at rehabilitation.
She's had chances. It's been 15 years in a PVS. She's not coming back. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/21/2005 14:16:44 |
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thetrue
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:11:11 [Permalink]
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In what I quoted it did give the number of the statute as 744.331 but here are two links about this particular statute http://www.bravermanrossi.com/FAQ.htm and http;//www.usmarriagelaws.com/html/divorce/fl/legitimate_reasons.shtml
"telling us to look it up for ourselves does not lend credence to your statements". Alright then. I'm sorry. I thought we were all big boys and girls here with working computers and internet systems that would allow us to go ahead and look some things up for ourselves. I've practically googled my fingers off already today. Try it. Try Wolfson Report. (after this post I'll find it for you and try to post the link). Look around in Terrisfight.org. I know some would say "why look there...it's biased". But being skeptical doesn't mean refusal to look does it? Search it out. Let your fingers do some walking. Mine are done for today.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:23:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
In what I quoted it did give the number of the statute as 744.331 but here are two links about this particular statute http://www.bravermanrossi.com/FAQ.htm and http;//www.usmarriagelaws.com/html/divorce/fl/legitimate_reasons.shtml
744.331 only mentions mental incapacity, not dissolution of marriage.
61.052 deals with dissolution of marriage. In no case is Michael Shiavo claiming the marriage is broken. He is looking to direct the medical care of his spouse. This is his duty and right under the laws of the US and Florida. Your appeal to pity fallacy is noted.
quote:
"telling us to look it up for ourselves does not lend credence to your statements". Alright then. I'm sorry. I thought we were all big boys and girls here with working computers and internet systems that would allow us to go ahead and look some things up for ourselves. I've practically googled my fingers off already today. Try it. Try Wolfson Report. (after this post I'll find it for you and try to post the link). Look around in Terrisfight.org. I know some would say "why look there...it's biased". But being skeptical doesn't mean refusal to look does it? Search it out. Let your fingers do some walking. Mine are done for today.
As referenced before, we have searched and looked at Terrisfight.org. It is invalid.
Being skeptical means obeying the rules of logic. The burden of proof is on the claimant. (That's you.)
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
We have searched it out. We came to different conclusions. We also looked at both sides of the issue and evaluated the great majority of medical opinion. That great majority of medical opinion by primary caregivers says she isn't in there anymore. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/21/2005 14:26:57 |
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thetrue
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:28:15 [Permalink]
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It took awhile for Kate Adamson to even blink to the point where her attorney husband could even recognize the light on inside of her. He even questioned it at first. And then he had to threaten to sue practically everyone before they even gave her questionable attempts at communicating any credence at all. Thankfully she had him as an advocate. After that, according to her account and her husband's it was only after weeks and months of intense therapy that she was able to finally, clearly and definitively communicate and convince those yet unconvinced. Apparently they had to fight the insurance company every step of the way.
Like Schiavo and Patti White Bull, Kate was diagnosed with PVS. She was completely unresponsive. They said there was no hope and ordered her feeding tube removed. Schiavo, it is claimed and it appears to be so, responds and interacts even more than Kate could at first. Patti was PVS for years. So Kate was diagnosed with PVS for 70 days. If no one had gone to bat for her, it's entirely possible that she would have been starved to death. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:29:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
"telling us to look it up for ourselves does not lend credence to your statements". Alright then. I'm sorry. I thought we were all big boys and girls here with working computers and internet systems that would allow us to go ahead and look some things up for ourselves.
There are perfectly valid reasons to ask from where - specifically (by URL) - you got your information, so implying that people who ask are children serves no purpose but to insult. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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thetrue
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 14:45:56 [Permalink]
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First off...my apologies for insult given and/or taken.
Secondly, I also misstakenly said that Jay Wolfson worked against allowing testing to see if Terri can now swallow or take nourishment by mouth. From reading another article regarding Wolfson's Report http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGAD2Z2XQND.html it's evidently been interpreted by some that he makes more of a case for allowing the testing, seeing how it's been 10 years since the last one.
There is a lot out there to wade through. I suppose all those interested will just have to do just that. |
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thetrue
New Member
9 Posts |
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thetrue
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 15:13:16 [Permalink]
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From the BravermanRossi link I provided previously: "Q: What are the grounds, which are necessary to file a divorce in the state of Florida? A: The state of Florida is a no-fault state, and grounds that are necessary in many states are not necessary in the state of Florida. In the state of Florida, the only ground which needs to be proven is that the marriage is irretrievably broken or the mental incapacity of one of the parties. However, if a party is mentally incapacitated, a dissolution shall not be allowed unless the party alleged to be incapacitated has been adjudged incapacitated according to the provisions of Florida Statute §744.331 for a proceeding period of at least three (3) years."
Michael Schiavo could file for divorce and let her willing family care for her instead of deciding to let her starve to death.
"appeal to pity fallacy noted"?? Alright. But I did post the URL's as requested didn't I? And now my googling fingers are truly done for the day.
You have a good one. :)
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 15:33:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
From the BravermanRossi link I provided previously: "Q: What are the grounds, which are necessary to file a divorce in the state of Florida? A: The state of Florida is a no-fault state, and grounds that are necessary in many states are not necessary in the state of Florida. In the state of Florida, the only ground which needs to be proven is that the marriage is irretrievably broken or the mental incapacity of one of the parties. However, if a party is mentally incapacitated, a dissolution shall not be allowed unless the party alleged to be incapacitated has been adjudged incapacitated according to the provisions of Florida Statute §744.331 for a proceeding period of at least three (3) years."
Michael Schiavo could file for divorce and let her willing family care for her instead of deciding to let her starve to death.
"appeal to pity fallacy noted"?? Alright. But I did post the URL's as requested didn't I? And now my googling fingers are truly done for the day.
You have a good one. :)
Per my cites of Florida law, he would still be liable for her continuing medical care. (61.081 if memmory serves.)
Appeal to pity fallacy is that you want Michael Shiavo to divorce his wife which would transfer the direction of medical care to his parents but stick him with the bill. You also believe that the marriage is irretreviably broken when Michael Shiavo does not believe that. As the person legally responsible for directing her care, it is his decision alone what path to take.
Again, in the Adamson case and others, there was no long term PVS diagnosis. Terri Shiavo has been evaluated quite regularly due to court rulings to still be in a PVS. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 16:34:26 [Permalink]
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thetrue,
As stated, the cases you reference are not relevent to this case. They were all, except one, short term. None, as far as I could discern from following links, were a result of severe hypoxic brain injury.
The types of "coma" that people wake from have different causes than the injury that Mrs Schaivo sustained. Her brain was without oxygen for an extended time due to her heart attack caused by a metabolic imbalance brought on by an eating disorder.
People do not wake up from severe hypoxic brain injury.
RE the statement from the Vatican:
quote:
VATICAN CITY - The Vatican (news - web sites) newspaper on Monday criticized the removal of a feeding tube from a brain-damaged Florida woman, saying nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies.
Who can, before God and humanity, pretend with impunity to claim such a right?" L'Osservatore Romano said. "Who — and on the basis of which criteria — can establish to whom the 'privilege' to live should be given?"
Using this logic we can then come to the conclusion that it is immoral and unethical to extend artificial life support to ANYONE. As the Vatican spokesman said, "Who - and on the basis of what criteria - can establish to whom the 'privelage' to live should be given?" Afterall, if we cannot judge who to withold these things from, then we certainly shouldn't be deciding to whom they should be given.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 16:49:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by thetrue
Michael Schiavo could file for divorce and let her willing family care for her instead of deciding to let her starve to death.
It was very interesting to hear an interview with Dr. Jay Wolfson tonight on All Things Considered in which he states that his impression is that Mr. Schiavo feels that to divorce his wife would be condemning her to a fate she expressly did not want.
Could you do such a thing to someone you love?
While it's pretty obvious what Terry's parents' motivations are in this case, what do you, thetrue, think is motivating Terry's husband?
By the way, Dr. Wolfson also stated that the "swallow test" he suggested would have been a legally binding decision as to Terry's fate. I can see good reasons for both parties to disagree to that. But especially so for Mr. Schiavo, as it would, like divorce, entail giving up his quest to do right by his wife's wishes. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 20:07:35 [Permalink]
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Tonight, on Nancy Grace Live, Dr. William Hammesfahr, identified as a neurologist, said that people mistake Terry Schiavo for being unresponsive because they don't realize that she is "partially blind" and can't see anything more than 18" away. When I heard this claim on TV on Sat night, I thought it was a sad example of post hoc reasoning.
From what I've read, many doctors agree that Ms Schiavo no longer possesses the equipment to move, have emotions or think.
On Nancy Grace live, a guest said that the legal theory that Schiavo's parents are now using is novel [in terms of her case, it's the first time this particular theory was put out]: that Terry Schiavo' 14th ammendment rights are being violated by a lack of due process. One of Grace's guests said that, with Ms. Schiavo's case spending the past 7 years in courts, and having been seen by multiple judges, that he felt that Ms. Schiavo had more "process" than most of us would ever see, and on those grounds would probably fail.
In addition, one of the guests on Nancy Grace said that the very groups and individuals who are pushing for this case to be addressed by Congress normally argue for greater states rights and for less federal involvment in individuals' lives.
Does anybody know of a fool-proof, legal way to prevent one's medical care from being hijacked by one's parents? I am surprised that the Schiavo case has gone as far as it has in courts, since Michael is obviously next of kin, which would seem to make it impossible for her parents to have standing. I would totally prefer to have my husband make any medical decisions i could not make myself. This case makes me concerned that my marriage is not sufficient to prevent interference by my parents. |
trish |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 22:22:55 [Permalink]
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With regard to Ms. Shaivo, I was discussing this with a friend who was able to locate some information on her current condition. Ms. Shaivo's only brain function are at the level of the brain stem. The reasoning portion of her brain is filling with spinal fluid. There is no return to anything beyond what her current state is, Ms. Shaivo, no longer exists as an individual.
Trish, as for your concerns... Sign a living will, a DNR, and give your husband durable power of attorney to make all decisions with regard to your health when you can not. That should protect you from interference by your parents. But see an attorney to do this, not a computer program.
I have all of that for my mother, now if something happens, hopefully my brother won't fight me on mom's wish for 'no extraordinary' measures. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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