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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2005 : 12:23:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
The Word says that God created the earth in 6 days. It also says He has so much power that He can speak things into existance. It's much simpler than believing in life forms we cannot observe changing form.
"Simpler" means "more likely" only based upon a misunderstanding of Occam's Razor.quote:
As if a non living, non thinking, non breathing, and non existing, mother nature has this much imagination.
An argument from incredulity carries no weight. Besides, you're making the assumption that God didn't direct evolution.quote:
Changes happen slowly. Changes never happened my friends and I can say that as A Fact!!!
You can say it as a fact only by ignoring what's been shown to you.quote:
In fact I would say the same thing in court.
This is, of course, irrelevant. Science is not equivalent to trials by jury.quote:
If you told me to denounce my faith in Christ and go free or spend my earthly life in prison, I'd choose prison.
There are millions of people who don't feel a need to denounce their faith in Christ in order to acknowledge evolution as being both a fact and a well-supported theory. My own lack of faith has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. That you cannot separate the two is a gigantic ox yoke of mistaken ideas which you're going to strap onto your kids, because you - for some reason - are proud to wear it.quote:
Imaginary friend? With all you glaring evidence supporting your "theory" my bible should have been buried long ago.
Why? The Bible doesn't teach science, and evolutionary theory doesn't teach religion. The "goal" of evolutionary theory is simply to explain how the world works. It is not to destroy your religion.quote:
Surely with as many men that have tryed to burn it out of existance you would think it wouldn't be able to stand.
Indeed, many men have tried to eliminate evolutionary theory from the world. The fact that it is still around is a testament to its veracity.quote:
Oh but maybe, my imaginary friend, with all His authority, power, leader of this universe was able to preserve His testament to man.
If your imaginary friend is so powerful, why is evolution even a question?quote:
So your "Book of Darwin" Wouldn't have all four legs to stand on!!!
Nobody worships any "book of Darwin" like you worship your Bible.quote:
Even in a sinful planet, "God the Fathers will is Done." In Heaven as it is in earth.
And who are you to say that God's Will is for us to reject evolution? You haven't yet answered this very important question: how is it that you know that God didn't work His creative acts through evolution? I don't really expect an answer, but the most rational one would be "I don't know that." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 13:31:07 [Permalink]
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| By the way, if anyone ever checked The Skeptic Summary you would have seen the link to Creation Watch a month ago. Might be worth looking at the Summary from time to time... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 13:56:54 [Permalink]
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Yay, a theist! Time for some fun ...
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Really, why don't you explain to us how the only real Christians are those who believe in a literal six-day Creation 6,000 years ago? Please explain this.
You say "real Christian," but what is a real Christian? The term "real Christian" is fully dependent upon who is defining it. I've demonstrated this here.
quote:
The Word says that God created the earth in 6 days. It also says He has so much power that He can speak things into existance. It's much simpler than believing in life forms we cannot observe changing form. As if a non living, non thinking, non breathing, and non existing, mother nature has this much imagination.
The Bible also says there are "four corners of the Earth" (Isa. 11:12, Rev. 7:1), "A mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds and grows into the greatest of all shrubs" (Matt. 13:31-32), and other blatant scientific errors.
If you think the Bible is a correct book, you might want to look here to see various links and sources that show the Bible is nonsense in many areas.
quote:
Changes happen slowly. Changes never happened my friends and I can say that as A Fact!!!
Actually change happens all the time. We see macro-evolutionary changes on the Genus and Species levels:
1. Talk Origin's examples of changes.
2. Dr. Lucas' examples of changes
3. Other examples of changes
quote:
In fact I would say the same thing in court.
And you'd be oh so wrong.
quote:
If you told me to denounce my faith in Christ and go free or spend my earthly life in prison, I'd choose prison. And I'm nothing like Peter, God gave Peter great authority.
Evolution does not equal atheism.
quote:
In the written word Peter was given authority and was maybe the first one awarded eternal life before death. Jesus could forgive his sins and he no longer had to sacrife a spotless lamb for his transgressions. For Jesus had been the lamb slain for the sins of every man. So now all you need to do is ask the Son to be forgiven I'm sure with God the Fathers direction.
17: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
As I already stated, if you are taking the Bible literally, it is full of nonsense. You are just picking and choosing what you want out of the Bible to be true, and in that case, I can pick and choose what I want out of it to be true as well.
quote:
Imaginary friend? With all you glaring evidence supporting your "theory" my bible should have been buried long ago. Surely with as many men that have tryed to burn it out of existance you would think it wouldn't be able to stand.
Logic fallacy of appeal to tradition. "Because the Bible has been around a long time ... it is right" is not a valid argument that backs up your assertion.
tk
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| Edited by - tkster on 04/03/2005 14:03:39 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 14:40:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
The term "real Christian" is fully dependent upon who is defining it. I've demonstrated this here.
It'd be interesting to see your demonstration of that, but I can't get past Hannah's utter nonsense on page one of that thread. Horses and elephants in the Americas prior to the arrival of the Spanish? Yeah, pull the other one. Roman artifacts in the Grand Canyon? Come on. Information on Web sites is worthless because there are other Web sites which may contradict it? Absolutely hysterical!
It sounds like she's going to be the most misguided and delusional biochemist ever. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 15:05:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by tkster
The term "real Christian" is fully dependent upon who is defining it. I've demonstrated this here.
It'd be interesting to see your demonstration of that, but I can't get past Hannah's utter nonsense on page one of that thread. Horses and elephants in the Americas prior to the arrival of the Spanish? Yeah, pull the other one. Roman artifacts in the Grand Canyon? Come on. Information on Web sites is worthless because there are other Web sites which may contradict it? Absolutely hysterical!
It sounds like she's going to be the most misguided and delusional biochemist ever.
Well, actually horses were present in nothern America before the arrival of the Spanish. They evolved in nothern America, spread out all over the world and then died out everywhere except in the 'old world' some 8000 years ago. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/03/2005 15:07:32 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 15:14:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Well, actually horses were present in nothern America before the arrival of the Spanish. They evolved in nothern America, spread out all over the world and then died out everywhere except in the 'old world' some 8000 years ago.
Nifty! Thanks for that.
Doesn't help Hannah, though, who asserted (without evidence) that there are 2,000-year-old horse skeletons which have been uncovered in the U.S.A. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 15:40:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by tkster
The term "real Christian" is fully dependent upon who is defining it. I've demonstrated this here.
It'd be interesting to see your demonstration of that...
Actually, I didn't really get into the defining until this post, but I was only demonstrating that is how I defined a Christian.
You can see later in that post my assertion of:
quote:
1. What makes someone a Christian is completely relative to the person who is defining a Christian. Not everyone in here has the same definition, not everyone in here agrees, and many people who are considered Christian by many, are not considered Christian by others.
2. How one uses the Bible to back up what they mean by Christian is also relative the person's interpretation. As seen above, you can show direct references showing that God is alone in charge of salvation. However, MANY Christians do not believe this or teach this, and consider it nonsense. The reason there are so many Christian denominations is because Christians interpret the Bible as they see fit. I always remember the awesome Susan B. Anthony quote:quote:
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do to their fellows, because it always coincides with their own desires
Because the same thing occurs with people's interpretation of the Bible.
The entire topic, with various Christians defining Christianity in their own way, demonstrated perfectly what I was talking about.
tk |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 02:47:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Well, actually horses were present in nothern America before the arrival of the Spanish. They evolved in nothern America, spread out all over the world and then died out everywhere except in the 'old world' some 8000 years ago.
Are there any clues to why the Equids died out in north and south America? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 03:01:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Well, actually horses were present in nothern America before the arrival of the Spanish. They evolved in nothern America, spread out all over the world and then died out everywhere except in the 'old world' some 8000 years ago.
Are there any clues to why the Equids died out in north and south America?
The last thing I read on it, some years ago, put it down to competition from other grazers and predation, possibly during some sort of extended drought. All conjecture of course, and I don't think very good conjecture.
Maybe later today, I'll look for something more up-to-date on it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 04:53:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
I fully believe in the scripture as a written testament, written by Godly men, to show proof of a living God that has authority of this universe and this planet.
No what you have is proof that men/women wrote the bible.
quote:
Why don't you just say you don't believe in God and don't want to serve Him. Why take a public punch at those who do. Seems a little calious.
I can recall when religion was a personal matter, and was not taken public. In a forum of public scruntiny your myth and beliefs take their chances.
quote:
Evolution is wholly supported by atheists. That is a given. Atheists need an explaintion as to why they believe what they do and having an intelligent creator isn't part of the plan.
As has been stated by others, evolution does not depend on the faith/belief of followers.
quote:
I believe I came from the hand of God, I have special status in this world and have been given dominion over the earth. You give yourself dominion over nothing. You claim existance from a four legged beast of the feild and that is demeaning. I believe man was created in the image and glory of God.
I do not doubt what you believe, but what can you prove ? If you are trying to demonstrate the validity of your belief you need something more than just your testimony of faith. And a few quotes from a poorly edited collection of stories, mostly co-opted from existing tradition. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 05:26:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Are there any clues to why the Equids died out in north and south America?
The last thing I read on it, some years ago, put it down to competition from other grazers and predation, possibly during some sort of extended drought. All conjecture of course, and I don't think very good conjecture.
I hauled my lazy ass to http://www.talkorigins.org/ and found this in Kathleen Hunt's Horse Evolution: quote:
Most of the one-toed horses in North America also died out, as the Ice Ages started. (The causes of these extinctions are unknown.)
...
In the late Pleistocene there was a set of devastating extinctions that killed off most of the large mammals in North and South America. All the horses of North and South America died out (along with the mammoths and saber-tooth tigers). These extinctions seem to have been caused by a combination of climatic changes and overhunting by humans, who had just reached the New World. For the first time in tens of millions of years, there were no equids in the Americas.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 06:14:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Are there any clues to why the Equids died out in north and south America?
The last thing I read on it, some years ago, put it down to competition from other grazers and predation, possibly during some sort of extended drought. All conjecture of course, and I don't think very good conjecture.
I hauled my lazy ass to http://www.talkorigins.org/ and found this in Kathleen Hunt's Horse Evolution: quote:
Most of the one-toed horses in North America also died out, as the Ice Ages started. (The causes of these extinctions are unknown.)
...
In the late Pleistocene there was a set of devastating extinctions that killed off most of the large mammals in North and South America. All the horses of North and South America died out (along with the mammoths and saber-tooth tigers). These extinctions seem to have been caused by a combination of climatic changes and overhunting by humans, who had just reached the New World. For the first time in tens of millions of years, there were no equids in the Americas.
Thanks Starman. I was just about to check TO and a couple of others. Saved me the trouble.
I'm not at all comfortable with the over-hunting hypothisis for the demise of most of the large mammals. There's too many questions. What were the relative populations, for example? Were there enough humans to put such an added strain on the animal populations?
The picture is complicated somewhat in that a couple of camel species yet survive in SA, and of course bison are still around despite Homer's attempt to eat them all.
I rather think that it was mostly habitate loss in one form or another, and the hunting was pretty much incidental. Of course, my guess is no better than anyone else's.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 08:22:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Are there any clues to why the Equids died out in north and south America?
The last thing I read on it, some years ago, put it down to competition from other grazers and predation, possibly during some sort of extended drought. All conjecture of course, and I don't think very good conjecture.
I hauled my lazy ass to http://www.talkorigins.org/ and found this in Kathleen Hunt's Horse Evolution: quote:
Most of the one-toed horses in North America also died out, as the Ice Ages started. (The causes of these extinctions are unknown.)
...
In the late Pleistocene there was a set of devastating extinctions that killed off most of the large mammals in North and South America. All the horses of North and South America died out (along with the mammoths and saber-tooth tigers). These extinctions seem to have been caused by a combination of climatic changes and overhunting by humans, who had just reached the New World. For the first time in tens of millions of years, there were no equids in the Americas.
Thanks Starman. I was just about to check TO and a couple of others. Saved me the trouble.
I'm not at all comfortable with the over-hunting hypothisis for the demise of most of the large mammals. There's too many questions. What were the relative populations, for example? Were there enough humans to put such an added strain on the animal populations?
The picture is complicated somewhat in that a couple of camel species yet survive in SA, and of course bison are still around despite Homer's attempt to eat them all.
I rather think that it was mostly habitate loss in one form or another, and the hunting was pretty much incidental. Of course, my guess is no better than anyone else's.
Bridle & Bit tells a curious story.This one, though, tells a more coherent story. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 08:23:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not at all comfortable with the over-hunting hypothisis for the demise of most of the large mammals. There's too many questions. What were the relative populations, for example? Were there enough humans to put such an added strain on the animal populations?
I agree with you Filthy. I think the best evidence that humans were not responsible for the extinction of the 'mega fauna' is the fact that the same animal types died out in europe and asia where humans had been living for thousands of years. True some of the animal didn't die out in asia, such as horses, but there was a huge extinction event in europe and asia at the same time as the one in the americas.
I see a complete ecological collapse brought on by the massive climate changes as the glaciers retreated.
Or possibly a big flood
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2005 : 15:55:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Verlch wrote:
Evolution is wholly supported by atheists. That is a given.
Accepting evolution (at least by means of natural selection), as people have already stated in this thread, does not necessarily mean that you have to denounce the belief in a supernatural being. In the same vein, being an atheist does not necessarily mean that you will accept evolution, since an atheist does not have to base his world-view around scientific principles. An atheist might for example believe in for example Lamarckism or spontaneous generation (new species pop into existence through purely natural means), even though the facts do not support these notions, while at the same time rejecting evolution as science describes it.
Here's a Venn diagram to illustrate the principle:
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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