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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2001 : 18:14:48
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Poll Question:
quote:
ORACLE Chairman and CEO Larry Ellison this weekend called for the United States to create a national identification system -- and offering to donate the software to make it possible -- free-of-charge. quote:
"We need a national ID card with our photograph and thumbprint digitized and embedded in the ID card,"
Ellison said in an interview Friday night on the evening news of KPIX-TV in San Francisco.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane...
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Poll Status:
Locked »» |
Total Votes: 0 counted »» |
Last Vote:
never |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2001 : 18:25:46 [Permalink]
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Voted for "Bad idea; having everyone's fingerprints on file goes too far"
but only because there was no "Dreadfully bad idea; rips the Constitution to shreds and is unenforceable anyway...and besides, it would flush out every closet McVeigh that exists" choice.
Off to write a letter to Ellison and to my congressman... |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 18:39:02 [Permalink]
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I had to vote bad idea, too. When we defeated the Soviet Union we didn't do it by becoming them. We defeated them by being a free, open society.
I'd hate to see us give up what America is about for protection. if we did what's the point?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Kaptain K
New Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 18:44:34 [Permalink]
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I agree with Zanderman. There is no "dreadfully bad" idea or "extremely bad idea" or "I wonder if Canada or Australia are accepting immigrants, because I'm leaving".
Edited by - Kaptain K on 09/23/2001 18:46:21 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 18:56:19 [Permalink]
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I voted for *bad idea* (without reference to Commie Pinko's). Actually, there probably are a lot of ignorant people out there who might think that fingerprinting everybody would work for greater public security.
Actually, when I was young, every child's fingerprints (with parental permission) were taken in my school. I was not told the reason behind their doing that. Therefore, I suppose that everybody who was a student in my childhood school system has been on file in some governmental data base for a long, long time. To my knowledge, I have never had any problem because of that. Also, every criminal gets his/her fingerprints taken (and, I believe, dna recorded), so the dangerous types are being monitored already.
Then again, there is a lot of information that is already known (school information, etc.) about all of us, so *1984* has come and gone long, long ago.
ljbrs   
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2001 : 21:13:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually, when I was young, every child's fingerprints (with parental permission) were taken in my school. I was not told the reason behind their doing that. Therefore, I suppose that everybody who was a student in my childhood school system has been on file in some governmental data base for a long, long time. To my knowledge, I have never had any problem because of that.
I don't think your finger prints are on file anywhere. 1st of all it would have been too much to compile it all then, still today, I think. If that program is anything like the ones I've seen in our area(Los Angeles), the cards are given back to the parents to keep so in the event of a missing child the authorities would have something extra to work with.
quote:
Also, every criminal gets his/her fingerprints taken (and, I believe, dna recorded), so the dangerous types are being monitored already.
DNA taken? I don't think so, not on a regular basis (I would think only from criminals who have done crimes where they need it for trial) and not put in a data base. It's been talked about but I believe is still controversial. Don't they need a court order to 'take' DNA from you?
quote:
Then again, there is a lot of information that is already known (school information, etc.) about all of us, so *1984* has come and gone long, long ago.
ljbrs
Well that's for sure. Can anyone say, Social Security #'s or credit cards? 1984, I'll say!
nlm-Question Authority, ask me anything.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 12:53:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
I voted for *bad idea* (without reference to Commie Pinko's). Actually, there probably are a lot of ignorant people out there who might think that fingerprinting everybody would work for greater public security.
Actually, when I was young, every child's fingerprints (with parental permission) were taken in my school. I was not told the reason behind their doing that. Therefore, I suppose that everybody who was a student in my childhood school system has been on file in some governmental data base for a long, long time. To my knowledge, I have never had any problem because of that. Also, every criminal gets his/her fingerprints taken (and, I believe, dna recorded), so the dangerous types are being monitored already.
Then again, there is a lot of information that is already known (school information, etc.) about all of us, so *1984* has come and gone long, long ago.
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe
Their original intent was to be able to find missing children. The database only exists at your child's school and is released to the police if the child is missing. My fingerprints are already on file. I worked for the Department of Veteran's Affairs in 1989-1990 and was bonded for $5 million. I still think that fingerprinting everyone and giving them a national ID card goes too far.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 13:19:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
I had to vote bad idea, too. When we defeated the Soviet Union we didn't do it by becoming them. We defeated them by being a free, open society.
I have several forms of government identification (military ID, various contractor and building badges, state driver's license) yet I do not feel at all unfree because of them. I might feel unfree because I'm not allowed to walk about in public without clothing (open society my ass) but even then I'm busted for for being nude not for failing to have pockets for my ID cards.
quote:
I'd hate to see us give up what America is about for protection. If we did what's the point?
America is all about anonymity? I thought we were about liberty. How exactly do ID cards (e.g. driver's licenses) infringe our ability to do as we please?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/24/2001 13:27:30 |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 13:29:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually, there probably are a lot of ignorant people out there who might think that fingerprinting everybody would work for greater public security.
Count me in for ignorance. Perhaps you could alleviate my unfortunate condition by enlightening me on the truth of the matter?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 13:31:05 [Permalink]
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I voted: “Good idea. It will work to make us more secure.”
In the short term and for people who fly a lot, they would be more secure. It would prevent the amateur terrorists from prospering, that is until someone kills a person that resembles them, peels the skin off the hand and figures out a way make a thin glove-cast of the victims fingerprints. Assuming that eventually the apparatus you place your hand in will measures temperature, and a thin vinyl glove-cast would probably reduce the normal hand temperature radiation. Similar to the new guidelines to counteract cheating in urinalysis drug screenings: {you get a friend, who is clean, to pee in a condom, tie a knot in it, then you place it under your armpit, to keep it warm, when it's time to take the test, go in the restroom, empty the clean pee into the jar and flush the condom} Except now most require the temperature of the specimen to be recorded within a few minutes of donation and the armpit is not as warm as the bladder. So, concerning the glove-cast, perhaps you could take some medication to raise your body temperature or just keep your hand in your pocket until it's time to test it.
Then only professional terrorists would be able to get onto an airplane. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 15:19:45 [Permalink]
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I haven't voted yet.
I can't really think of why national ID cards would be bad in and of themselves, but I can think of ways they can be abused.
What should our standard be for things like this? Is the potential benefit greater than the potential for abuse?
Will the cards be used to track our movements? (Before you think "Paranoid!", this would be just like companies tracking your web travels). Will these cards become a requirement for travel, or certain purchases? Will there be lists created to track people who make certain purchases or travel to certain places "for national security"?
Just idle thoughts...
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 15:45:08 [Permalink]
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I thought a driver's license was for operating a vehicle legally. Hell what do I know?
I don't think a company tracking your web browsing habits is nearly as dangerous as the government tracking you. Besides that you can block, to some degree, the web tracking.
I think a national ID system goes against the concept of "innocent before proven guilty" that many Americans hold as an important ideal. Obviously not everyone feels this way or that ID cards infringe upon this but there are those of us that do.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2001 : 16:13:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't think a company tracking your web browsing habits is nearly as dangerous as the government tracking you. Besides that you can block, to some degree, the web tracking.
Exactly! Look how easy it is for companies to track us. Think of what the government could do if they required your fingerprint and DNA-signed ID card for important transactions.
quote:
I think a national ID system goes against the concept of "innocent before proven guilty" that many Americans hold as an important ideal. Obviously not everyone feels this way or that ID cards infringe upon this but there are those of us that do.
This is a very good description of the feelings it invokes in me.
Similar to how indignant I feel when stopped by a DUI checkpoint. They shouldn't have the right to stop me without me doing anything wrong, dammit! It's none of their friggin' business what I've been doing that night, unless I am in any way acting suspisciously!
But I digress...
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 06:44:27 [Permalink]
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I have a full set of fingerprints on file with the federal government. This is standard practice. Carried a military ID card and have a driver's license. TDs position seems most reasonable to me.
Ah well...I think its basically a revenue generator - but would be really suspicious of that if it were meant to be used as papers in Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Union.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 07:01:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
I thought a driver's license was for operating a vehicle legally. Hell what do I know?
Perhaps a national ID card can be for boarding an aircraft legally…
quote:
I don't think a company tracking your web browsing habits is nearly as dangerous as the government tracking you.
Do these cards have GPS location transmitters? I thought they just had thumbprints.
quote:
I think a national ID system goes against the concept of "innocent before proven guilty" that many Americans hold as an important ideal.
How so? Would people be somehow punished or otherwise treated as guilty if they had cards?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 07:40:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
How so? Would people be somehow punished or otherwise treated as guilty if they had cards?
Um, how about guilty if you don't have a card.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Topic Locked
