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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2001 : 07:46:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do these cards have GPS location transmitters? I thought they just had thumbprints.
There will be the potential (and I'm sure the temptation) "for security reasons" to start requiring that you show this ID card for numerous major transactions (medical admittance, major purchases, major transfers of assets, travel, applying for insurance and/or credit, etc.)
This would in effect be a major means of tracking and keeping tabs on individuals.
Doesn't it piss you off that banks are told by the government that they must report "suspicious" account activity? With an ID card with your fingerprint and DNA sample tracking your transactions, I think the activities the government will consider "suspicious" will increase, and be reported much more frequently.
And how about DNA discrimination?
"Hello Mrs. Insurance agent, I would like to apply for health insurance."
"Ok, I'll need to scan in your National ID card first... Oh, I'm sorry, the computer DNA scan says here that you have a gene that puts you at risk for early death. No insurance for you!"
This is all hypothetical of course, and who knows how likely any of this is. But I think it needs to be discussed before we go with the idea of National ID cards.
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 10:41:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have a full set of fingerprints on file with the federal government. This is standard practice. Carried a military ID card and have a driver's license. TDs position seems most reasonable to me.
Ah well...I think its basically a revenue generator - but would be really suspicious of that if it were meant to be used as papers in Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Union.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Trish, I don't know when you got out of the Marines, but didn't you have blood drawn for a DNA profile too?
The idea for a national ID card scares me for a couple of reasons. I pay taxes and stay out of trouble, so it's none of the governments business what books I buy, where I travel to, or what internet sites I visit. The biggest argument against ID cards? I don't think it will work. Given sufficient motivation and a little know-how, they could be faked. A terrorist with a fake ID sort of makes every one else's pretty useless, doesn't it?
Lisa
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 11:40:06 [Permalink]
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True Lisa. Um, got out in '91. Don't remember a blood draw for DNA profile. Yeah, now that I think about it, there is real potential for problems. I guess I was kinda looking at it like a driver's license.
Don't know if anyone remembers, but about 9 years ago, or so, they [them that aint us] were talking about something called TABS. A card basically that could be read by a unit in the wall. The concept was to do away with paper money and it would access information via internet. The problem was that they could be used to track someone.
I remember discussing this in a programming class - so the article was probably in a trade rag.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 12:33:49 [Permalink]
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I'd opt for a chip implant, myself. That way I can beat my head against a wall AND be validated at the same time. 
I've got so much plastic bulging in my wallet now, it's ripping my trouser seams.
(:raig |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 12:46:53 [Permalink]
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I've got so much plastic bulging in my wallet now, it's ripping my trouser seams.
(:raig
Gee, I cut up all my plastic. Too dangerous if you ask me.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 22:15:42 [Permalink]
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I've got so much plastic bulging in my wallet now, it's ripping my trouser seams.
(:raig
Well lemme see what's in my wallet, and what kind of info folks have on me.
Sears knows I like craftsman tools, USBank knows I hang out at Borders Bookstore, Visa can find me in the Caribbean every March, and Victoria's Secret knows my bra size. Big deal. This is all voluntary. I know companies keep tabs on consumer spending habits. What makes me nervous is the implications of a national ID card. I'm a fairly ethical person, but even I can think of clever ways to abuse the information that could be gleaned from a program such as this.
Lisa
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 06:21:42 [Permalink]
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What makes me nervous is the implications of a national ID card. I'm a fairly ethical person, but even I can think of clever ways to abuse the information that could be gleaned from a program such as this.
Lisa
I agree Lisa, the potential for abuse would be appalling. Not only the abuse / theft of personal information, but renewed cyber attacks on a nation ID system.
"Im sorry sir, you can't board the plane. Our National ID Verification System is down. But our courtesy car will take you to the nearest Ramada Inn until the system is on-line again. Thank you for TRYING to fly United." 
(:raig |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 07:36:02 [Permalink]
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All this talk to potential for tracking and abuse is yet to be substantiated. In fact, I've yet to see anyone mention anything that this card would do that is not already being done. Can anyone name a new intelligence gathering capability that the gov't spooks would gain from this card?
They can already track check, credit and internet purchases by name. They can already track location by purchases. If the card were to completely replace cash, that would add a whole new dimension of tracking, but no one has suggested such a thing to my knowledge, or even that the card carry any purchase power per se.
The DNA objection is also relevant since the card will not have any sort of DNA profile, and anyhow DNA fingerprinting technology is based only on RFLPs which tells you absolutely nothing about someone's genetic health.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/26/2001 10:11:27 |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 07:46:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
How so? Would people be somehow punished or otherwise treated as guilty if they had cards?
Um, how about guilty if you don't have a card.
People are penalized now for failing to get driver's licenses, social security numbers, selective service numbers, etc. Are those also cases of guilty until proven innocent?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 07:56:11 [Permalink]
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The DNA objection is also relevant
I assume you mean "irrelevant"?
quote:
and anyhow DNA fingerprinting technology is based only on RFLPs which tells you absolutely nothing about someone's genetic health.
Ok. But what about a year from now? Is not knowing for sure what can be done with this in the future good enough for you to allow it? This standard is valid for alot of things, sure, but is this one of them? Having someone's genetic information conveniently in everyone's pocket (or else!) may not be anything to worry about today, but technology is advancing rapidly.
Is the security offered by these cards worth the risk?
[Then again, if the technology gets advanced enough, I guess a card wouldn't even be needed, unless the information is also stored on a network that can be accessed by anyone with the proper access. If they can analyze a card with DNA on it, they could just as easily make you give a drop of blood, a inner cheek swab, or a hair sample, than ask for your card out of your pocket.]
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 09/26/2001 07:57:02 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 08:11:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
All this talk to potential for tracking and abuse is yet to be substantiated.
How do you substantiate potential?
quote:
In fact, I've yet to see anyone mention anything that this card would do that is not already being done. Can anyone name a new intelligence gathering capability that the gov't spooks would gain from this card?
It's true that our current network of transactions can be used for this, but it's slow, and there are actually laws that limit the use of SSNs for identification purposes.
I believe the danger is in what they will start requiring your National ID card for, in the name of more security.
Right now I can pay cash for an airline ticket, and fly anywhere in the country I want to. I would argue that I had the choice, and the right, to go where I wanted without telling the government about it (regardless if this information is used for anything malecious). If I have to all of a sudden provide "papahs, please" (said with a bad German accent), regardless that I paid cash, I would have lost that right and priviledge that people used to complain about not having in the old Soviet Union.
quote:
They can already track check, credit and internet purchases by name. They can already track location by purchases. If the card were to completely replace cash, that would add a whole new dimension of tracking, but no one has suggested such a thing to my knowledge, or even that the card carry any purchase power per se.
The point is, again, that with a National ID card, even if you choose to pay cash, you may still be required to show your ID before you can complete your transaction.
I guess the important question is, do we have a right to anonymous transactions? A private company can require whatever they want to provide their services to you, but what happens when the government steps in and requires private companies to collect information from you, and give it to them?
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 09:51:53 [Permalink]
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I guess the important question is, do we have a right to anonymous transactions? A private company can require whatever they want to provide their services to you, but what happens when the government steps in and requires private companies to collect information from you, and give it to them?
That is the crucial question. I'd be willing to say yes, we have the right to perform anonymous transactions between any two persons choosing to transact anonymously. But surely the airlines and other such high risk ventures are not willing to do so. They require proof of identification before they willingly transact with you, cash or not. In the event of a criminal investigation involving air travel, they will happily turn over the passenger manifest to the authorities, whether you paid cash or not. So again I must ask: how would flashing a national ID at the check-in counter (vice a state driver's license) change the legal situation or civil rights involved?
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 10:11:09 [Permalink]
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So again I must ask: how would flashing a national ID at the check-in counter (vice a state driver's license) change the legal situation or civil rights involved?
Sorry to reply to a question with a question, but in the same sense, why is it currently illegal to ask for a SSN?
Why did the government (at the time, at least) feel it necessary to make it a law that SSNs are not allowed to be asked for for ID purposes? And wouldn't the same reasoning be applicable to National ID cards?
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 10:16:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
So again I must ask: how would flashing a national ID at the check-in counter (vice a state driver's license) change the legal situation or civil rights involved?
Sorry to reply to a question with a question, but in the same sense, why is it currently illegal to ask for a SSN? Why did the government (at the time, at least) feel it necessary to make it a law that SSNs are not allowed to be asked for for ID purposes? And wouldn't the same reasoning be applicable to National ID cards?
Good questions. I'll look into the legal reasoning behind the Privacy Act of 1974 and the other similar legislation.
BTW, many driver's licenses bear SSNs, as do most gov't and all military ID cards. How about your own gov't contractor ID?
"It is not paranoia, they really are out to get you!"
Edited by - tergiversant on 09/26/2001 10:19:36 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 10:24:05 [Permalink]
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I wonder if that privacy act had anything to do with Richard Nixon using the FBI to gather information on his enemies. Even if this is not what's behind it, though good money says it is, it is an excellent example of abuse.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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