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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2001 : 08:25:12
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…let us not create more from thin air.
It has been a while since I have posted, though when time has permitted I have lurked; unfortunately I have not been able to read every post on every topic. I do not intend to make this my last post unless other factors intervene, but I empathize regarding some of Rubysue's complaints, though I disagree with some specific conclusions regarding other posters here.
So I'm going to ramble, which may be synonymous with rant and will likely offend, but ramble I shall.
I'll start with personal data.
I lost a good friend at the Pentagon along with about five others whom I knew as voices on the phone and as e-mail addresses. My older brother is a pilot for American Airlines based out of New York City, my younger brother is a doctoral candidate at Stony Brook University on Long Island, and my aunt lives in Jersey City and works in Newark; there were anxious hours.
I personally knew no one involved at the WTC but have several friends among local fire, police, and emergency medical services departments in Kentucky and Indiana, so my initial and immediate reaction upon seeing the first tower collapse was not concern for the occupants but was literally “My god, those poor EMS people.” (No apologies for being an atheist and using a deity to curse). Two days later as I drove home from work I passed a firefighter with a donation boot at an intersection. I had only $2 in my pocket and wanted to apologize for it being so small an amount, but found I could not speak at all.
Tragedy touches me; evil angers me; heroism moves me.
As an officer in the Reserves, I am subject to the call-up, but it is unlikely to happen soon for various reasons. I've been wrong before. I've spent some time with my two boys (8 and almost 10) reassuring them. Ryan has an academic interest in the goings-on, but Brendan has needed assurance that Daddy is not about to “go to a war.” Thankfully, Katie, at 4, is too young to pay attention to these things. Yet it is possible that Daddy WILL go to a war….I'm walking that line with my kids.
Let me explain my signature line: for a very long time I cast about for some measure of behavior against which to judge my worth as a human. Religion fulfilled that need when I was young, nothing fulfilled it for a while, and my kids fulfill it now. I have found no truer guide than to ask this question before taking any questionable step: “If my kids find out about this when they are old enough to understand, will they still be proud of me?”
By that standard, will I accept a call-up to go fight? Yes.
Will I participate in the indiscriminate killing of innocents? No.
Will I participate in legitimate military operations knowing that some innocents will be killed?
Yes.
Will I voice my dissent with policy in the appropriate forum? Yes.
Will I continue to follow my oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Without question; as much as at any time in our history, it needs such defending.
Now that I am an avowed skeptic, I am surprised by the apparent political make-up of most skeptics. This board and other boards seem to be more liberal (in the American political sense) than otherwise. This should not surprise me because I know from experience that no group is uniform, nor would I wish it to be, but I suppose in my excitement at finding like thinkers I hastily concluded that like thinking would lead to like conclusions; fortunately for those who enjoy variety, as I do, I was wrong.
I voted for Bush (both of them). Before September 11 I was a vocal Bush supporter to dissenting friends and co-workers.
Despite inclinations otherwise, I remained silent during this board's nearly universal bashing of Bush. Bashing which was occasionally on the mark but usually juvenile, shallow, hypocritical, and unfounded; bashing which picked and chose snippets of info to deride Bush/
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 09:10:04 [Permalink]
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Garette, always a welcome voice of reason, and I cannot even begin to know the sense of loss that you and others feel, so I hesitate to even comment.
Yes, it was me that used the term murder. Did you see the Nagy article at progressive.org yet? More evidence. Iraq is certainly not the only incidence of U.S. terrorism.
Your reasons are much the same reason that I oppose war. Can I look at myself and know I've done the right and honorable thing regardless of what others who follow the crowd think? Have I defended what I think is right and honorable about this country? People on this forum and other places rush to support Saddam Hussein and Bin-Laden by allowing their own anger to rule their senses.
As I said, I am a member of the War Resister's League. In order to join, you must agree with the statement that war is a crime against humanity. I've seen no exceptions, but I'm willing to change my mind if any reasonable evidence to the contrary presents itself convincingly.
quote:
…let us not create more from thin air.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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steinhenge
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 09:32:09 [Permalink]
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Garrette,
That was maybe the only perfect thing that I've ever seen on a board. If anyone, anywhere, ever asks me anything about anything may I just point them here?
Thank You,
Brandon Smith
"Oh good, cookies" |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 09:34:26 [Permalink]
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Yhanks for posting Garrette. We definetely don't always agree but at least I can't deny that your posts are well thought out and, like in this one, you make excellent points.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 11:05:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tokyodreamer: Save time in future by saying with about 99% accuracy: “That's Garrette's position, too.”
As I have tremendous respect for your views and your knowledge, and you being a poster that I look up to, I must say this makes me proud. Thank you. 
------------
And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 11:26:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
...you must agree with the statement that war is a crime against humanity.
Unfortunately, for us, sometimes a necessary crime [war] must be committed in order to further the *goals* of humanity.
I was kinda wondering when you'd pop up Garrette. I have missed your voice of reason. And often found myself wondering what your point of view would be on something when what I did was want to react as a Marine and yell and cuss. (OK, I slipped up - oh well...only human you know.)
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 13:38:21 [Permalink]
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What a shock to find you think that way! (0:
quote:
Unfortunately, for us, sometimes a necessary crime [war] must be committed in order to further the *goals* of humanity.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 14:47:35 [Permalink]
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Gorgo,
Is there any society or culture, past or present that you agree with?
“…war is a crime against humanity. I've seen no exceptions…”
No exceptions, never, in the entire history of the world. Relativistic philosophy I assume, all points of view are equally valid, and there are no superior epistemic norms.
We are at war. Someone wants to destroy us. They want to kill you and your children, and they are here to do it. They are planning right now. They are studying maps of your city, and they want to kill you. They know about chemical and biological weapons and they are planning to kill you. They have been living next to you, working next to you, and they are planning to kill you.
I don't care what their justification for wanting to kill me is, I want them stopped and apprehended. I want the leaders, teachers and troops of the al-Qaida terrorism network killed. I don't care what their justification for wanting to kill me is, I want them dead. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2001 : 16:00:02 [Permalink]
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I say unfortunately Gorgo because I don't/didn't want to go to war. But I will fight if I have to. That is my duty, what I promised to do.
quote:
to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic
No one (at least I hope no one) joins the military because they like the thought of going to war. I joined for many reasons, but the most prevalent I walked away with was a duty to my country and my fellow countrymen and women and to others. I want peace. I don't want my daughter to grow up under threat from every person that thinks they can intimidate me or my country to get their point of view accepted. I don't want her children to grow up with that. I sincerely hope someday people can learn to live with and accept [or at least tolerate] each other well enough to get along. Until then, wars will happen. And we [America] didn't take this to them, they [the terrorists] brought it to us. Well fine, I'll fight.
This conflict can not and will not be resolved to al Qa'ida satisfaction until the *Satan US* is wiped from the face of the earth. Or hadn't you heard, he's calling this Jihad.
Voltaire trully had something going when he said: Those who believe absurdities, will commit attrocities.
Well the WTC was an atrocity. And as for Iraq, well that's something that will have to be dealt with, someway, somehow. Though Hussein is calling the Gulf War conflict a defeat of the Coalition forces. Hmmm. Why'd he have to go and start killing Kurds? Wasn't that too an atrocity? Over 1.5 million had to flee their homes in the face of his onslaught.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 03:06:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo,
Is there any society or culture, past or present that you agree with?
I don't know what you mean by "agree with." I've been told all my life that this is the best place on earth. I've been told that a lot of that is propaganda, too. This is a pretty good place to be, and we all do a good job of trying to keep things right for the most part. There are major defects foreign and domestic, just like most places.
quote:
“…war is a crime against humanity. I've seen no exceptions…”
No exceptions, never, in the entire history of the world. Relativistic philosophy I assume, all points of view are equally valid, and there are no superior epistemic norms.
It's not a hard and fast rule for me. I haven't researched every war in every century. Generally, there are other alternatives. Defense is another matter, but then there are different ideas about defense, too.
quote:
We are at war.
According to Mr. Bush, who will make it into a war. Didn't start out that way. It started out with a crime.
quote:
Someone wants to destroy us. They want to kill you and your children, and they are here to do it. They are planning right now. They are studying maps of your city, and they want to kill you. They know about chemical and biological weapons and they are planning to kill you. They have been living next to you, working next to you, and they are planning to kill you.
I don't know that. However, assuming that you are correct, those people see the world the same way that you do. They think that we are against them. They think that we want to kill them. Garrette responded to something that I didn't say very well. We will make more enemies. The only effect that the U.S. and Great Britain (not the U.N.) had on Iraq after a couple of million murdered was to make Saddam Hussein stronger and to make a whole lot of enemies that weren't there before.
quote:
I don't care what their justification for wanting to kill me is, I want them stopped and apprehended. I want the leaders, teachers and troops of the al-Qaida terrorism network killed. I don't care what their justification for wanting to kill me is, I want them dead.
I understand that in the heat of the moment. However, we have time to think. I think it's time to stop and think and ask ourselves who we want to be. Do we want to continue to be the largest terrorist nation on earth, or do we want to set an example?
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 07:41:54 [Permalink]
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http://www.fair.org/articles/wtc-okcity.html
I know Garrette doesn't like the term "international law" when it applies to the U.S., but there are standards which the U.S. expects other countries to follow, which it does not follow itself.
If the U.S. is an outlaw, how does it expect others not to be?
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 08:38:12 [Permalink]
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I know Garrette doesn't like the term "international law" when it applies to the U.S., but there are standards which the U.S. expects other countries to follow, which it does not follow itself.
Gorgo, besides there being such a thing as "self fufilling prophesy" there is also "self falsifying prophesy."
If this vile spew about the United States that you are publishing on the internet in a time of national emergency were true--if this nation were the cess pool that you twisted imagination would make it out to be-- then we could expect the FBI to be pounding on your door any minute now.
But you really aren't concerned that that is going to happen, are you?
Stop the murder of the American people.
http://www.startthewar.org
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 09:00:52 [Permalink]
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You've never heard of COINTELPRO, have you?
Anyway, this is dualistic simplistic thinking. Just because there are problems in one area doesn't mean that there aren't problems in other areas. This is the freest country on earth. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a criminal nature. Especially in foreign policy.
quote:
I know Garrette doesn't like the term "international law" when it applies to the U.S., but there are standards which the U.S. expects other countries to follow, which it does not follow itself.
Gorgo, besides there being such a thing as "self fufilling prophesy" there is also "self falsifying prophesy."
If this vile spew about the United States that you are publishing on the internet in a time of national emergency were true--if this nation were the cess pool that you twisted imagination would make it out to be-- then we could expect the FBI to be pounding on your door any minute now.
But you really aren't concerned that that is going to happen, are you?
Stop the murder of the American people.
http://www.startthewar.org
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 11:03:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
fatwa February 1998 ---
"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh
Translation by: Federation of American Scientists. (FAS)
“…those people see the world the same way that you do. They think that we are against them. They think that we want to kill them.” ---Gorgo
I disagree, “those” people in my opinion see the world through a dogmatic fundamentalist culture of religious intolerance. Kill Americans ~ go to Heaven. Kill Jews ~ go to Heaven. --- No we do not see the world the same way: ‘the separation of church and state' is possibly the biggest difference. I watched on tv an interview with an apprehended suicide bomber in an Israeli jail, he stated that when the bomb was strapped on him he lost all fear, and his interpretation of this ‘epiphany' was, “It must be God's will”
I do not believe ‘those' people think that we want to kill them, that is before 9-11, they perhaps see ‘us' as changing their religious culture. Like if they see a nine-year-old Islamic, drinking Coca-Cola and playing with toy dinosaurs from a happy-meal, it really pisses them off. I believe that I understand that type of thinking, they become xenophobic and unwilling to compromise their religious beliefs, however the teachers of Islamic terrorism are in the minority and they are slowly becoming more and more isolated.
“Do we want to continue to be the largest terrorist nation on earth, or do we want to set an example?” ---Gorgo
What specific examples are you proposing? |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 11:32:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
I do not believe ‘those' people think that we want to kill them, that is before 9-11, they perhaps see ‘us' as changing their religious culture. Like if they see a nine-year-old Islamic, drinking Coca-Cola and playing with toy dinosaurs from a happy-meal, it really pisses them off. I believe that I understand that type of thinking, they become xenophobic and unwilling to compromise their religious beliefs, however the teachers of Islamic terrorism are in the minority and they are slowly becoming more and more isolated.
I think that today's Islamic fundamentalism got it's foot in the door because of a backlash against US policies. One good example is what happened in Iran after the Shah was deposed. The Ayatollah was able to exploit a lot of anger felt almost universally among Iranians after decades of totalitarian rule and the encroachment of US companies and American culture. Islam used to be a lot more accepting of other religions and beliefs. I think the Islam we see now in the 21st century is a direct result of US meddling and it's not just about dinosaur toys.
And before you dismiss this consider what you see in the United States today. All the flag waving, anthem singing and Madison Avenue's co-opting of patriotism is our cultural answer to the attacks. This includes the national prayer service. Think about it...
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 11:44:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I do not believe ‘those' people think that we want to kill them, that is before 9-11, they perhaps see ‘us' as changing their religious culture. Like if they see a nine-year-old Islamic, drinking Coca-Cola and playing with toy dinosaurs from a happy-meal, it really pisses them off. I believe that I understand that type of thinking, they become xenophobic and unwilling to compromise their religious beliefs, however the teachers of Islamic terrorism are in the minority and they are slowly becoming more and more isolated.
I think that today's Islamic fundamentalism got it's foot in the door because of a backlash against US policies. One good example is what happened in Iran after the Shah was deposed. The Ayatollah was able to exploit a lot of anger felt almost universally among Iranians after decades of totalitarian rule and the encroachment of US companies and American culture. Islam used to be a lot more accepting of other religions and beliefs. I think the Islam we see now in the 21st century is a direct result of US meddling and it;s not just about dinosaur toys.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Iran was not due to American policies. It was due to the belief that every 100 years a charismatic leader emerges to return the Shiite contries back to basics. It just so happens that the Shiite calendar was celebrating the 100 year anniversary while the Shah was in the US. The Ayatollah (sp) Komenei (sp) was a charismatic leader who showed up at the prescribed time and was accepted. His actions were based on the creep of Westernization that was going on in Iran. You will notice the anti-US bent of Iran cooled off pretty quickly after the death of Ayotolla Khomenei.
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