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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2001 : 11:54:16 [Permalink]
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Cooled off? You mean only hot enough to melt lead but not quite hot enough to melt iron?
They are hardly our friends.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 12:16:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Few news reports have pointed out that there is one body under international law that can authorize military action: the United Nations Security Council. If the U.S. has strong evidence against Osama bin Laden and associates, and Afghanistan continues to refuse extradition to the U.S., the two countries could negotiate surrender of the suspects to a neutral country for trial (as happened with Libyan agents tried for the Lockerbie explosion). If that approach fails, the U.S. could present its case to the Security Council, which could authorize the equivalent of an international arrest warrant. ---Jeff Cohen
1988 ~ 21 December - Pan Am Flight 103 from London to New York explodes at 31,000 feet over Lockerbie in southern Scotland, killing all 259 on board and eleven people on the ground.
2001 ~ January 31 - The guilty verdict on Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, a married man with children, was delivered after an historic 84-day trial under Scottish law in the Netherlands.
2001 ~ February 4 - The figures alone are mind-boggling: 230 witnesses; 85 days of evidence covering 10,000 pages of transcript; a final bill in excess of £60 million. The culmination of the biggest murder investigation in British legal history.
Well the Lockerbie trial took twelve years I wonder how long the WTC & Pentagon trial would take. In my opinion Osama bin Laden poses an immediate threat to the US and should be dealt with sooner rather than later {ie 2013} |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 12:28:37 [Permalink]
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"The only thing worst than having allies is NOT having them" - Winston Churchill
Quite honestly, I give a lot of credit to Mohammed Khatami, the current Iranian president. He's trying to thread a very fine line between the fundamental Islamic clerics led by Khamenei and the desire for a more secular society. I give the man a B+ for "Balls".
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
(:raig |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 12:43:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Cooled off? You mean only hot enough to melt lead but not quite hot enough to melt iron?
They are hardly our friends.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
They don't need to be all buddy-buddy with us. They just need to respect our right to exist and not nay-say everything that the US suggests knee-jerk like. I have seen a lot more moderation from Iran in the years after Khomenei. There were fledgling diplomatic contacts between the US and Iran starting about four years ago. Relations with that country has improved, albeit not radically. Once you whip up the populace of a country with hatred of another country, it is very difficult to change relations with that country significantly. For example, in 1980 Ronald Reagan referred to the Soviet Union as the evil empire. Leonid Breshnev was in power. Then Breshnev died. Yuri Andropov took over for about 18 months before he died. Mikael Gorbachov took over and started the Glasnost project. During this time, the US softened its rhetoric on the Soviet Union in the span of 8 years to that of a honorable adversary and later trading partner. Public opinion had to be backed down with polictical rhetoric from the place the rhetoric of previous years had left us.
The feelings that Reagan expressed in the early 80's were not as extreme as the feelings Khomenei did. It will take time for public opinion to change. The heat is more like enough to melt aluminum. There is still some anti-US sentiment but not to the extreme of Khomenei Iran. The residual anti-US sentiment would be the product of foreign policy.
The point? The anti-US sentiment due to foreign policy sparks some protests and some amount of snideness. It does not garner the absolute hatred that it takes to cause people to crash airplanes into buildings. That is the work of fundamentalists who want to discredit a successful economic system and spark a holy war.
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 13:08:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
And before you dismiss this consider what you see in the United States today. All the flag waving, anthem singing and Madison Avenue's co-opting of patriotism is our cultural answer to the attacks. This includes the national prayer service. Think about it...” ---@tomic
The US free enterprise system is run by greed and regulated by laws… Duh… I don't dismiss it, I see no viable option presented.
quote:
Here's how the ayatollah {Ruhollah Khomeini} himself put it: "...Moslems have no alternative... to an armed holy war against profane governments. ...Holy war means the conquest of all non-Moslem territories. ...It will ...be the duty of every able-bodied adult male to volunteer for this war of conquest, the final aim of which is to put Koranic law in power from one end of the earth to the other. "The leaders of the USSR and of England and the president of the United States are ...infidels.... ...Every part of the body of a non-Moslem individual is impure, even the hair on his head and his body hair, his nails, and all the secretions of his body. Any man or woman who denies the existence of God, or believes in His partners [the Christian Trinity], or else does not believe in His Prophet Mohammed, is impure (in the same way as are excrement, urine, dog, and wine)[sic]." ---Howard Bloom
Khomeini was a class act, pray to Allah or I'll kill you, I hope none of these extremists get their hands on nuclear weapons. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 13:45:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
The US free enterprise system is run by greed and regulated by laws… Duh… I don't dismiss it, I see no viable option presented.
I don't see how this relates to what I said. Did you quote me by accident when you meant to quote something else?
quote:
Khomeini was a class act, pray to Allah or I'll kill you, I hope none of these extremists get their hands on nuclear weapons.
Yeah, it's already scary enough knowing Mr. You're-with-us-or-against-us has his finger on the trigger.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 13:50:22 [Permalink]
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As I've said in other forums here, if we are serious about ending terrorism, we need to be serious about ending U.S. terrorism. If we are serious about "rounding up" terrorists, then we need to start rounding up U.S. terrorists.
quote:
“Do we want to continue to be the largest terrorist nation on earth, or do we want to set an example?” ---Gorgo
What specific examples are you proposing?
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 09/26/2001 13:52:32 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 03:34:50 [Permalink]
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Well Garrettte, it would seem that what you attempted here has broken down again into the whose fault is it catergory. I attempted to illustrate in another thread the possibility of tracing fault all the way back to our first stirrings of self realization as an absurdity. And was accused of rationalizing the attack and saying it wasn't then really bin Laden's fault.
No amount of rationalization or laying of blame will alter what happened. If you must look to the past, look to it to avoid the pitfalls of the past and locking into the same mode of thinking. Look to it, not for cause, but to improve [hopefully] relations, dealings, etc, in the future. Saying the US has caused problems in the Middle East by attempting to further its own interests and that is why America is hated is possibly true and possibly not. The Brittish aren't hated for their colonial [end WWI] divisions in the area, the cutting up of the Ottoman empire or the implimentation of an Israeli state out of Palestine following WWII.
Please, quit looking for a blame setting or causal reason for the hatred. One person blows up something then someone else retaliates and the first blows up something else and no one really remembers who started it or why. The US has been working for peace and stability in the region. Look at the Camp David Accords that have lasted for 20+ years (the ones Hussein attempted to destroy by drawing Israel into the Gulf War and the US maintained by offering Patriot missile protection to them), the attempts to settle peace between Israel and Pallestine. So, we've muddled our way through without a complete understanding of the region. Is it somehow the fault of the US when some fundie decides they don't want peace, despite their governments wishes, and blows up something and starts the whole damn mess all over again. Because there must be a retaliation. This is somehow the fault of the US because Israel is supplied with US arms. Why? The US didn't go out and encourage a fundie to launch an attack at the others.
For as much *bad* as the US is accused of here, it has done as much [more?/less?] *good*.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 04:07:08 [Permalink]
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I don't know what Garrette has attempted, or what you are attempting. However, you seem to be the only one talking about "blame" and "fault." Why you need to focus on those ideas, I'm not sure, but it seems like more of that same old dualistic, simplistic, irrational thinking.
quote:
Well Garrettte, it would seem that what you attempted here has broken down again into the whose fault is it catergory.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 05:04:27 [Permalink]
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Blame/fault. Maybe I should use reasons then. I don't know. It just seems that bin Laden as a cause - just because he wants someone to hate to keep himself in a position of power over others - has not even been examined. Nor has, maybe bin Laden is just mentally insane. Nor, bin Laden is on the same power trip as the Taliban. There has been almost no discussion drawing lines between how US policy has affected bin Laden's thinking other than that the US shouldn't be where it is. How heavily are these views actually colored by fundamental Islam - despite fatwahs etc issued. What can be done about the religious intolerances.
Everything has revolved around what the US has done wrong. Maybe I'm reading that as laying blame. (Could be my own ready conclusion from my past experiences - I don't know.)
But, ...more of that same old dualistic, simplistic, irrational thinking.... No, I'm just wondering why no one is examining the past of that region. How has the cutting up of the area after the fall of the Ottoman empire by the Brittish empire affected the views of the region today. What has caused the prevalence of fundamental religiosity in the area. Is it, perhaps of ethnic origin, or a rebellion against so much outside influence in the area (prior to the US) but since the US is there now and prevalent to the populace that it is a convenient target, or maybe their just like the fundies here but with guns, or maybe its just from the abject poverty in certain regions. Why not discuss what the Soviet invasion caused in Afghanistan? What constructive can be done to alter that state of poverty.
Or is the US supposed to walk away from something in the area that we want/need for our daily lives? There's so much more there than the just US intervention and US *terrorism* the world round. As I said elsewhere, everything that is done has myriad effects that are unforeseeable. Maybe bin Laden wasn't, but the mentality of the time was to stop the Red Army at all costs. Yeah, is that a contributor - sure. Is it the main underlying cause? I don't know. Do you? Have you considered other possibilities beyond what the US has done? Or does not the history of the entire region matter?
Everyone is jumping (not everyone - I guess I shouldn't group folks that way) on their own little bandwagon and touting that particular horn. Right now, right or wrong, the US and its citizens must move to protect themselves from a foreign threat to OUR constitutional rights and OUR very way of life. I know the concept, Gorgo, goes against your way of thought at a fundamental (no not fundie) level, just understand that at a fundamental level I view my responsibilities very differently. I see the unfortunate necessity in military actions both overt and covert. It will be that way until tolerance and acceptance are universals on earth. Is it possible? I don't know - I hope so. So hope lives on.
As for Garrette attempt - I'm reading it as a stop the infighting, stop misreading things (yes, I'm guilty of this too). For that alone - my apologies.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 05:15:39 [Permalink]
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The investigation is under way, security is increased. That is happening. After that, look at a broad-range complete plan that the people of the world can get behind. Not just one that simplifies it into a Bush-headed battle between good and evil. This is not rational.
quote:
Blame/fault.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 05:23:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not just one that simplifies it into a Bush-headed battle between good and evil.
Please, tell me, that this is not what you believe regarding those of us who are/were in military service and those of us who think that military action is at this time a necessity. I know from personal experience that most military members don't want to go to war, don't want to see a war while they are in. Yet, these are the people who will do their duty when they are called to do so.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 05:33:44 [Permalink]
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This is what George Bush has said, that this is a battle between "good and evil." What you "believe" I don't know. This is not a black and white world. If you say you want justice, and you don't want justice for all, then you don't want justice.
I'm sure that those that you call "enemy" are doing what they think is their duty.
quote:
Please, tell me, that this is not what you believe regarding those of us who are/were in military service and those of us who think that military action is at this time a necessity. I know from personal experience that most military members don't want to go to war, don't want to see a war while they are in. Yet, these are the people who will do their duty when they are called to do so.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 08:32:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm sure that those that you call "enemy" are doing what they think is their duty.
Yes, they were doing their duty to kill Americans. That is what they consider their duty. I don't like the concept of a war being faught based on *good* and *evil*.
Understand, my loyalties must first lie with the US and then beyond it's borders. I don't know how many times I can say this: Until we [humans] learn tolerance and acceptance of others then, military conflicts are an unfortunate necessity for maintaining individual [country] interests and security.
I would like to see the problems of the world solved. But, I don't see us [America] rolling over and giving in to every demand made of us by everyone solving the problems. I will agree, the US has done somethings in it's own self interests that are questionable at best, horrific at worst. However, this happens far more often than desireable in the International Arena from all countries and all areas. Now, is not necessarily the time to worry about cleaning house. The time to do that is when we are secure. I know, the average citizen could care less about our foreign policy.
You see, the Kurds between Iran and Iraq were each supported by the other side of where they lived to kill each other and fight the Iran-Iraq war by proxy. (Though there were Iranian and Iraqi troops involved also.) Atrocities are committed everywhere. All of this must be solved. Only tolerance, acceptance, and education are going to begin to work toward that solution. Yes, this absolutely includes that same standard for the US.
I sometimes think if the accusatory tone that I pick up from you were somehow absent we could find that our positions are not so different, just that we ultimately arrive at the same place by differing routes.
I don't want to see people suffer atrocities. But I know that everyday the Taliban executes women for minor infractions that we would over look. The Kurds (as disorganized and non-aligned an ethnic group as ever) are discriminated against pretty much everywhere they live. People in the former Soviet Union are kicked out of their homes by the Russian version of the mafia. Citizens starve and live in squalor in the richest nation.
There are so many wrongs and atrocities, but until we, as a nation, are secure from outside threat we can do little. Bring this to general public attention and educate the average citizen about it. There will be enough of a cry to diminish some of these overt and covert activities.
Don't ask me to sacrifice national safety (not pride) and national interests to this. I believe it is in the interest of the nation to secure peace. Maybe electing out officials with the old Cold War mentality is a good place to start. It is the old Cold War mentality of stopping Communism at all costs that has in part brought us to where we are in international politics.
Terrorism is not going to be erradicated through military action. Tho, that will begin to route those who bombed the WTC. I was trying to think where bin Laden, if captured, could receive a fair trail. The WTC had citizens from most countries working there. Someone mentions trying and convicting bin Laden in an Islamic court as a deterrent to his followers. However, the fundamentalist Islamic movement is present in most countries in the Middle East. So, we're left with a court that is potentially sympathetic to bin Ladens al Qi'ada. What then? Where do we go?
Let's deal with this problem [the terrorists] and in conjunction work to improve the lives of those who are living in the abject poverty that is the breeding ground of the al Qi'ada.
I don't know where to begin with the Israeli situation. Everytime peace with Pallestine seems near, some radical decides to bomb the *enemy* country or commit some act of terrorism within the others borders, consequently, the peace talks/agreements breakdown.
I can agree with easing restrictions regarding humanitarian aid and limited staged lifting of sanctions against Iraq, to relieve the suffering of the common Iraqi citizen. Especially, since the sanctions aren't working. But, we still have a problem in Hussein that must be dealt with also.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 08:47:09 [Permalink]
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Trish, I feel no problem pointing out these errors in foreign policy not just because I think they were contributing factors but also because I was critical of them for years before what happened. Now I feel that people are pointing fingers going "shame on you" for saying that. Ironically, I feel much the same but I have been saying "shame on the government" for some time and now that I feel it's actions have come back to bite us I feel it's time to make even more noise because that's what I do. I'm not in the military. Yhose that say we need to let the military do it's job blah blah blah are just annoying me. I'm not in the military and I'm not stopping the military from doing anything. So what I can do is discuss things. I doubt anything I say will ultimately have any effect on foreign policies but what the hell. This is something I can do. What would you rather have me do? Bomb the World Trade Center in protest? Shoot, that's gone. I could still get the White House.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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