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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:04:19 [Permalink]
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Speaking of major blunders. Think waaay back to May. Trish and I were pretty pissed about our government giving the Taliban $43 million. At the time we said this money would be thrown right back in our teeth in the form of violence.
Just imagine what we could do if we ever got our hands on some Tarot cards! Move over Miss Cleo.
Lisa
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:06:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now I feel that people are pointing fingers going "shame on you" for saying that. Ironically, I feel much the same but I have been saying "shame on the government" for some time and now that I feel it's actions have come back to bite us I feel it's time to make even more noise because that's what I do. I'm not in the military. Yhose that say we need to let the military do it's job blah blah blah are just annoying me. I'm not in the military and I'm not stopping the military from doing anything. So what I can do is discuss things. I doubt anything I say will ultimately have any effect on foreign policies but what the hell. This is something I can do.
I really don't want anyone to feel that way @tomic. I'm not pointing the finger at you (well, at least I don't think I am?). I understand that your operating on the premise that those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it. I would know nothing of your previous opinions regarding many of these actions.
The military does have a job. Once in a while, tho we hope not often, it must do that job. Now, is one of those times. @tomic if you could understand the cold dread that grips me because of the aftermath of what happened to WTC, I think, you and I might find some empathy. The first words heard in S-4 when Hussein invaded Kuwait - Oh fuck. the first words heard when we go our standup orders - Oh fuck. Followed directly by the Maj attempting to get us to our jobs. Afterall, we had to inflate from the 15 people in MAG 70 to over 6000. We had to get everything packed and on planes.
I worry about this *war*. I worry about the other terrorists that have slipped under the radar. I worry about people being arrested and detained in the US without due process. I worry about expanding the bounds of governmental ability to intrude into our lives because of this. There are many thing about which I worry.
What you say will unltimately have effect if it changes the mind of one person @tomic. Because, hopefully, that person will change someone else's mind. The point is to get a reasoned point of view out there. An understanding of the *mis-conducts* of the US in foreign policy, whatever that view is, as long as it is reasonable and will hopefully move toward establishing peace with all our neighbors. Educate people.
Hell, I may not always agree with you, I can hardly be expected to do that . But maybe we can work toward a better understanding of the others position. The same goes with Gorgo. That's, hopefully, the tolerance and acceptance I was talking about. I may need to practice that personally, more often - I can only say I try.
@tomic, if I've ever given you the impression that I'm trying to shame you into silence, that was never my intention - my sincerest apologies.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:12:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Speaking of major blunders. Think waaay back to May. Trish and I were pretty pissed about our government giving the Taliban $43 million. At the time we said this money would be thrown right back in our teeth in the form of violence.
Just imagine what we could do if we ever got our hands on some Tarot cards! Move over Miss Cleo.
Lisa
Scary thought!
Though did you see John Edwards preaching about the healing of people affected by the WTC on his show by him communicating with the dead. That's one sick disgusting person that needs to be shamed into silence.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:17:35 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm sorry if I took it too personally. Part of the current problem is that everyone's hovering between pissed off and explosively pissed.
If anyone really wants to get themselves into a furor go check out some international boards. I have beeen at some actually defending, yes you heard that right, the US. There are some people posting bad US foreign policies that never happened. I had to question one person accusing US soldiers of raping thousands of Bosnian women. Maybe it's not such a good idea LOL I was getting really pissed off myself.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:21:10 [Permalink]
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I appreciate all the remarks, but we're not going to get anywhere if we keep talking about "mistakes" in foreign policy. The policy against Iraq is genocide. These are not mistakes. The millions that died in Southeast Asia and Korea at the hands of the U.S. are not "mistakes." This is murder.
The invasion of Panama (with resultant "collateral damage")was no more ethical than the invasion of Kuwait. These are not "mistakes" they are crimes against humanity.
That does not excuse whomever did this to the people in the WTC or Pentagon or wherever. But calling these crimes "mistakes" does not help anyone's case at all.
quote:
Trish, I feel no problem pointing out these errors in foreign policy....
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:26:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
If anyone really wants to get themselves into a furor go check out some international boards. I have beeen at some actually defending, yes you heard that right, the US. There are some people posting bad US foreign policies that never happened. I had to question one person accusing US soldiers of raping thousands of Bosnian women. Maybe it's not such a good idea LOL I was getting really pissed off myself.
@tomic
[heavy sarcasm]And the US press never picked it up?[/heavy sarcasm] Unfortunately in countries where the US is reviled this is something that may be taught. No matter the untruth of the situation. And I wonder why people just can't get along together despite their differences? Guess the US being accused of *The Rape of Nan King* would make me hate the US too. This is propoganda that is spouted to make the enemy less than human and little better than animals. Just as is calling the US the *Great Satan*.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:29:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
I appreciate all the remarks, but we're not going to get anywhere if we keep talking about "mistakes" in foreign policy.
So what are the solutions besides calling every country on earth murderers and accusing them of Genocide. What can be done? I've asked this of you once before with no satisfactory answer.
I want a solution to the problems. Not accusations!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:35:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Speaking of major blunders. Think waaay back to May. Trish and I were pretty pissed about our government giving the Taliban $43 million. At the time we said this money would be thrown right back in our teeth in the form of violence.
Just imagine what we could do if we ever got our hands on some Tarot cards! Move over Miss Cleo.
Lisa
Scary thought!
Though did you see John Edwards preaching about the healing of people affected by the WTC on his show by him communicating with the dead. That's one sick disgusting person that needs to be shamed into silence.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
"Shamed". Is that the same as beating senseless.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:35:56 [Permalink]
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I'll back away from calling all of those instances genocide. I won't back away from calling the U.S. attack on Iraq genocide. None are mistakes.
Solutions? The first step is to recognize there is a problem, then we can talk about solutions.
The biggest problem is that we have a certain world "leader" talking about the battle between "good and evil." This is insanity.
quote:
So what are the solutions besides calling every country on earth murderers and accusing them of Genocide. What can be done? I've asked this of you once before with no satisfactory answer.
I want a solution to the problems. Not accusations!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:36:30 [Permalink]
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So what are your feelings abour General Noriega, Gorgo? Was it wrong to remove him considering all the good he was doing for the people of Panama?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 09:39:39 [Permalink]
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Do you think it would be a good idea for bin_Laden to remove Bush from office? Killing thousands of people in the process?
quote:
So what are your feelings abour General Noriega, Gorgo? Was it wrong to remove him considering all the good he was doing for the people of Panama?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 09/27/2001 09:40:22 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 10:02:22 [Permalink]
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It's no secret that I'm not a fan of Bush but if it comes down to Bush or bin Laden Bush starts looking mighty good. The thing you have ignored is that in Iraq the US has stuck to targeting military targets and have attacked these because of violations of an agreement Iraq signed when it lost the war against the US.
My question is why didn't we just finish the job we started in Iraq? I know, I know I've said this before but it really is such a good question. If we had everyone's favorite paragon of virtue(Saddam) might not have gassed a Kurdish village or two. But we've gone over this to death already....
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 12:21:25 [Permalink]
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I don't think you answered my question. If it is okay for the U.S. to take over Panama and kill perhaps thousands of people because it doesn't want to live up to it's obligations regarding the Canal, why isn't it okay for someone to attack the U.S.?
The U.S. has devastated the infrastructure with attacks and sanctions. This is a war against the people of Iraq, propping up the Ba'ath party. The U.S. administration said in the past that it wanted the Ba'ath party in power, so that's what they got. This is not a failure, anymore that Vietnam was a failure. If they couldn't install their own dictator, they'll take the one that's there and watch the people die and blame it on the dictator.
quote:
It's no secret that I'm not a fan of Bush but if it comes down to Bush or bin Laden Bush starts looking mighty good. The thing you have ignored is that in Iraq the US has stuck to targeting military targets and have attacked these because of violations of an agreement Iraq signed when it lost the war against the US.
My question is why didn't we just finish the job we started in Iraq? I know, I know I've said this before but it really is such a good question. If we had everyone's favorite paragon of virtue(Saddam) might not have gassed a Kurdish village or two. But we've gone over this to death already....
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 12:38:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't think you answered my question. If it is okay for the U.S. to take over Panama and kill perhaps thousands of people because it doesn't want to live up to it's obligations regarding the Canal, why isn't it okay for someone to attack the U.S.?
I think you have this backwards. The US invaded Panama because we were living up to our obligations. And thousands didn't die and we didn't take it over. We got rid of a thug called Noriega and left.
The Gulf War was another example of the US living up to it's obligations. Obligations to our allies there(Saudi Arabia,Kuwait) and an obligation to stop Saddam Hussein because we had made him what he was. The sad truth is that the Iraqi people have it tough, really tough, but some believe it could have been much worse. I shudder to think of the state of the world today if Saddam hadn't had his nuclear program stopped. Do you cry for the children Saddam has killed and would you have cried for the millions of dead children in a world where Iraq was allowed to have nuclear weapons?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 13:50:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that today's Islamic fundamentalism got it's foot in the door because of a backlash against US policies. One good example is what happened in Iran after the Shah was deposed. The Ayatollah was able to exploit a lot of anger felt almost universally among Iranians after decades of totalitarian rule and the encroachment of US companies and American culture. Islam used to be a lot more accepting of other religions and beliefs. I think the Islam we see now in the 21st century is a direct result of US meddling and it's not just about dinosaur toys.
And before you dismiss this consider what you see in the United States today. All the flag waving, anthem singing and Madison Avenue's co-opting of patriotism is our cultural answer to the attacks. This includes the national prayer service. Think about it... ---@tomic
The US free enterprise system is run by greed and regulated by laws… Duh… I don't dismiss it, I see no viable option presented. ----- This was in response to “Madison Avenue's co-opting of patriotism”
In my opinion the US cultural answer to the attacks was fear, shock, then flag waving. The begging people to go out and spend money came from the entirety of the free enterprise system and not any one company.
I don't know this directly but I heard that the ‘national prayer service' ended with: The Battle Hymn of the Republic I suppose that there is more than one version of the lyrics, multi-denominational I hope.
I find it difficult to comment about your first paragraph, because I feel that most “US foreign policy” decisions, at the time that they are made, are the best choice from a hand full of bad choices. That is the “policy” chosen has the least amount of predictable downside effects. I would like to see a democratic government installed in Iran, or I would like to see Iran adopt a democratic government, however I don't see any way to achieve those goals with certainty. So I'll agree with capitalism, we purchase some of their goods and they purchase some of our goods and eventually they will see the advantage of democracy. Oust their rulers, elect their leaders, and write their constitution in blood if need be “of the people by the people and for the people”
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