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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2005 : 05:17:31
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Verlch my friend, mayhaps you have the wrong suspect in the Masons. It appears that Opus Dei is a lot more dangerous.
quote:
A Profoundly Rightwing Pope
By VICENTE NAVARRO
Baltimore, Maryland
The predominant perception of John Paul II, as extensively reproduced in most of the Western media, is that he was very conservative ("traditional" is the term widely used) in religious subjects but progressive in social matters, as evidenced by his defense of the poor and his concern for human and social rights. His key ideological role in the demise of the Soviet Union is put forward as further proof of his commitment to liberty and democracy. John Paul's support for the Polish trade union Solidarnosc, his numerous speeches in support of the poor and of those left behind by capitalism or globalization, and his frequent calls for human solidarity not to mention his opposition to the invasion of Iraq by U.S. forces all are presented as examples of his progressiveness in the social arena.
In this perception of Pope John Paul II, some critical elements are forgotten. Let's detail them. He was groomed for the Papacy, long before he was elected Pope, by the ultra-right-wing sect Opus Dei. This secret organization was founded by Monsignor Escrivá, a Spanish priest who was formerly a private confessor to General Franco, organizing spiritual meetings for the Spanish fascist leadership. Opus Dei chose John Paul as the candidate for Pope very early in his career, when he was bishop of Krakow. His conservatism and anti-communism were very attractive to this sect.
I don't pretend to know much about Vatican politics beyond the pap we all see in the news, so this article came as something of a suprise. I'd like to see a little more documentation on it, though.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2005 : 08:15:38 [Permalink]
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| ... that Opus Dei thing actually exists? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 01:26:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
... that Opus Dei thing actually exists?
Yes and no. It exists but if you are thinking of the Da Vinci Code book, they took liberties with the real group.
Opus Dei website answer to the DVC. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/10/2005 01:30:51 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 03:24:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
... that Opus Dei thing actually exists?
Yes and no. It exists but if you are thinking of the Da Vinci Code book, they took liberties with the real group.
Opus Dei website answer to the DVC.
I have got to read that book! Money is a little tight at the moment, so I'm waiting for the paperback.
May I reccommend another: Name of a Rose by Umberto Eco. Eco says that he wrote it during a time when he wanted to poison a priest. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 06:12:35 [Permalink]
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It's on my to-read list, Fil. DaVinci Code was great.
I wouldn't be surprised by exaggerations (hey, I exaggerate stuff when I'm writing, and I suck), but I thought the Opus Dei was a total fabrication, in my blissful ignorance of all things religion. Apparently I was wrong. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 07:34:27 [Permalink]
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Okay! I would like to know.
The Davici Code, what was great about it???
The writing? Please!
The plot? Like any Robert Ludlum novel.
Did Brown dig up something new? No, the sang real and priory rubbish are old ideas.
I have no problem with people enjoying this novel more than I did, but get real. The only thing that was great with The Davici Code was the marketing.
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| Edited by - Starman on 04/10/2005 08:07:12 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 08:30:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Okay! I would like to know.
The Davici Code, what was great about it???
The writing? Please!
The plot? Like any Robert Ludlum novel.
Did Brown dig up something new? No, the sang real and priory rubbish are old ideas.
I have no problem with people enjoying this novel more than I did, but get real. The only thing that was great with The Davici Code was the marketing.
The writing was good. Then again, I'm not one that favors fluff over straight-to-the-point. I could care less about a large vocabulary and poetic writing (main reason why I dislike Tolkien, though I admired the man's imagination).
Don't know the man, and never read any other Dan Brown thing.
Over-written idea? Most likely. But then again, what has NOT been over-written before?
Marketing? Indeed. I read it ready to hate it, as I hate most bestsellers.
Don't know why I thought it was great. Maybe I'm just weird. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 11:01:01 [Permalink]
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For one thing, the heretic ideas within the book spoke to me... 
Angels and Demons is also a great book.
Both of them plays out during a relatively short time-period, Angels and Demons less than 24 hours. In the case of "The DaVinci code" slightly more. They are both high-paced. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2005 : 19:59:04 [Permalink]
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| I think the Da Vinci Code was pretty average as a mystery. But as to tying the plot to real events, places, and things, the author did tie in a lot of intriguing ideas even if it was stretched into fakery. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 02:13:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I think the Da Vinci Code was pretty average as a mystery. But as to tying the plot to real events, places, and things, the author did tie in a lot of intriguing ideas even if it was stretched into fakery.
And that's the trick to writing a good historical novel as well as a successful one. They are read by history freaks who are as likely to toss the story aside for gross inaccuracy as the story itself. I certainly will. Poor history (lack of research) makes me feel that I'm being bullshitted, however good the yarn.
I think that is why there are so few, relativly speaking, historical novels making the best seller lists. The people who regularly read them have too great an interest in history.
I might reccommend The Flashman Papers by George MacDonald Fraser, a series that has gathered a rabid, cult following due to excellence in both categories.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 04:07:18 [Permalink]
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| Ever heard of Christian Jacq, the egyptologist (or so they say)? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 05:25:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Ever heard of Christian Jacq, the egyptologist (or so they say)?
If read some (one or two, I cant remember) of the Ramses books. So-so I'll guess. I might return to that series but only if I get a lot of time.
One series of historical novels that I like is Colleen "Thornbirds" McCollough's novels about the last years of the Roman republic.
"The first man in Rome" starts around 107 BCE with Marius rise to power and the series continue through Sulla, Pompey, Cicero and of course Caesar. There are now six novels.
I'm currently reading a Swedish historical novel "The Royal Physician's Visit", by Per Olov Enquist, about the reign of the deranged Danish King Christian VII.
Seems good so far. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 05:32:34 [Permalink]
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| Yep, I read the Ramses one, all the way to the end. Nice, unless you're looking for history. Then it's not that nice. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 15:07:23 [Permalink]
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| I've read several of Michener's "historical novels" (Alaska and Caribbean come to mind) though not lately. Interesting yarns, though I'm not sure how accurate the historical parts are. Nice and lengthy though, and good for a long plane trip and hours on the beach. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 16:32:37 [Permalink]
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I wasn't that impressed by the Da Vinci code either. I found that the story just kept repeating itself: Find a clue. Solve a code. Find a clue. Solve a code. etc.
Because I got his other books for xmas, I've read them as well. Quite average. I found the bit in Deception point where fossils of lobster-like creatures found in a meterorite unequivocally proves panspermia quite funny. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2005 : 17:10:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
I've read several of Michener's "historical novels" (Alaska and Caribbean come to mind) though not lately. Interesting yarns, though I'm not sure how accurate the historical parts are. Nice and lengthy though, and good for a long plane trip and hours on the beach.
I liked Centenial. The history was at least ok, and he tells a good story, or rather, several in this book.
The American series by John Jakes is another one, especally if you like long reads as much as I. There are some 13 volumes, if memory serves. I started it when only a couple of volumes were out and was forced to wait endlessly for the next book(s). It took some four years before I completed it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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